By Pam Geller doesn’t know much about Islam or Muslims, that much is clear. What she does know, however, is how to rally the troops to incite racism. From funding Islamophobic bus ads to maximizing offensive Muslim stereotypes, it’s clear that there’s only one thing on her agenda — and that’s hate.
In response to the Charlie Hebdo attacks earlier this year, Pam is hosting “The Inaugural Muhammad Art Exhibit and Contest” in Texas on May 3, 2015. She wants to display all the most offensive Muhammad cartoons she can get her hands on. And she’s calling on the public to compete in who can be more offensive to the Islamic religion.
It’s public knowledge by now that depictions of Prophet Muhammad are forbidden and offensive to Muslims, so as to not deify who we believe to be the final messenger of the one true God. Unfortunately, some severely misguided people take this to the extreme and respond to Muhammad depictions in unspeakable ways. We don’t think depictions of Muhammad are a huge deal — and we say that because we believe the Muslim people have bigger fish to fry — but what makes it a huge deal is when it’s hijacked by Islamophobes to project their anti-Muslim sentiment.
Pam Geller tries to conceal her abominable hate speech against Muslims as her fighting for “free speech.” Knowing that it is offensive to over a billion Muslims around the world who just want to live in peace, she targets all Muslims in her press-needy antics. But the thing is, this is not about free speech. It’s about common decency. It’s about tolerance. It’s about pluralism.
So, we thought, why not push back against the hate — with love?
Muhammad is the most common name in the world. Chances are that all know a Muhammad. So, let’s draw Muhammad. Let’s honor his diversity. Let’s celebrate his many different faces. Let’s elevate his humanity. In a bleak world where the Pamela Gellers are the ones with the mic, let’s shine some light on the good.
Draw a Muhammad in your life and post it on social media with the hashtag #DM2015. We’ll be reposting awesome submissions to our full Facebook album here. Let’s help Pam draw Muhammad.
Photo and video by Aymann Ismail. Hosted by Hebah Akram Khan. Concept by Mohammed Barakat.
This is awesome. Pam Geller is a piece of sh*t, and I’m an Atheist. 🙂
You are a piece of shit…. Think its ok to attack others, enjoy yours.
Um….Like Pamela Gellar does?? Nonstop?
It doesn’t serve us to lower the dialog. If Ms. Gellar intends only to spit vitriol toward Muslims, Islam and those who support decency then we should opt to disengage. I still think that somewhere in there is a person who is simply afraid and ignorant. I don’t hate her… just feel bad for her.
so what do you think of salam rushdie and theo van gogh?
so you are a muslim. what kind? do you follow a madhab?
Salman Rushdie and Theo van Gogh have both made choices that I would not make. They made choices that they are entitled to make, though. I support their rights via the UDHR to express themselves however they would like, no matter how much I may disagree with them. I am a Muslim. What kind? The kind who submits to Allah. I follow the madhab that is the Quran.
what is UDHR? so you are non-sectarian? you aren’t a sunni or a shia? an alawite or an ahmadi? not a salafi or a sufi?
you derive all your fiqh and ideas from the Koran? so do you pray 5 times a day?
UN Declaration on Human Rights?
Theo van Gogh is dead. Killed by a Muslim for making a movie. And Rushdie lives under constant threat of death. Religion of Peace.
btw. over 30 people have died at the hands of muslims because of the book, ‘satanic verses’. they killed the Japanese translator and I think the Italian. they lit a hotel on fire because they a publisher was staying there and that killed like 32 people.
I’m a Christian and she IS disgusting
Pam Geller is a creation of Allah, who instead of accepting and fulfilling a role of peace and justice has decided to stir up enmity and anger. I don’t hate her, nor think she is full of excrement but she certainly does have some incitement to atone for. And I’m a Muslim.
I love this idea! My Mohammed is in his late thirties, has thinning, gray-black hair, a medium brown comlpexion, dark eyes, and is a little chubby. He smiles a lot. I would like to draw him in an airplane because he was in the Air Force.
Narrated ‘Aisha: I stuffed for the Prophet a pillow decorated with pictures (of animals) which looked like a Namruqa (i.e. a small cushion). He came and stood among the people with excitement apparent on his face. I said, “O Allah’s Apostle! What is wrong?” He said, “What is this pillow?” I said, “I have prepared this pillow for you, so that you may recline on it.” He said, “Don’t you know that angels do not enter a house wherein there are pictures; and whoever makes a picture will be punished on the Day of Resurrection and will be asked to give life to (what he has created)?” (Book #54, Hadith #447)
All the sheeple look so cute and cowardly as sheeple always are.
who the fuck you calling sheeple?
so you are asking people to sin. that is funny. depictions of any living thing is haram according to the sunnah.
anyway, looks like some guys were shot at the event. I wonder if it was an attempted robbery or something else. what could it be?
A “sin”, is of course up to interpretation. Does the Quran forbid it? The answer is no. Then it is not a sin in Islam. If the Sunnah forbids it then it is a sin for a Sunni, but not a Muslim.
well about 70% of muslims are sunni. and the shia also follow some of the sunnah. they don’t accept hadiths narrated by abu harriari (however you spell the cat guy’s name). or Aisha, the hate Aisha. are you an Islamic scholar? so will angels actually enter a house with pictures in it?
so is it a sin in islam not to pray 5 times a day?
can you tell me where gog and magog are?
I am not a scholar, just a dedicated student of the Quran for some two decades. Will angels enter a house with pictures in it? I will have to ask an angel if I am ever to meet one. Why would not praying five times a day be a sin? Gog and Magog, as far as I recall, are located at the “setting place of the sun” or so relates Sura Al-Kahf.
well Muhammad supposedly meet an angel. so when he says they will not enter a house with pictures or puppy dogs, should we not believe him? are you not familiar with the hadith? Gabriel said he would come to Muhammad one night with new revelations and he didn’t show…
I thought praying 5 times a day was an obligation for muslims? so not fulfilling that obligation is not a sin? interesting.
you sure? the setting sun? I thought they were in the east? place of the rising sun. the prophecy maybe that they will be released when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east? but you are saying they are on earth?
Dedicated student of the Quran who refuses to admit that the knowledge you’re taking in has been preserved by the people you claim lack guidance.
Ok so drawing Mohammed is not anti Islam it’s anti Sunnah. Is this the same place that writes kill the infidels?
The more you force your believes the more resistance you will find through free speech.
Who cares! Hey Muslim girl, there are countries that ban all sorts of things in the name of Allah, you can go there and never be offended
I support and endorse free speech. Draw Muhammad and speak against him all you like. I am forcing my beliefs on no one as that is expressly forbidden in the Quran. Extremists will do what they do and we will do all that we can to stop them.
“Extremists will do what they do and we will do all that we can to stop them.” what exactly have you done to stop them.
islamqa.info/en/43087
1. It doesn’t say “kill the infidels”. Infidel is an English word. It says to defend yourself against the kuffaar. Kuffaar doesn’t mean infidel. It means “one who covers the truth”. Someone who willfully disbelieves in order to try and undermine the Revelation.
It also says, right after permission to kill the attackers was given, “but do not commit aggression”, meaning don’t go beyond defense.
People of different beliefs were protected by the Muslims of Medina. Those same people were also starved because the kuffaar cut off supplies to Medina in order to try to destroy the Muslims.
Anxiously awaiting your reply of how Jewish men guilty of treason were executed. Muhammad could have punished the Jews of Medina by following the rules of their own holy book, the Torah, which says in this situation every living being should be executed, including women, children, and the elderly, but he had mercy. I highly doubt if the tables were turned that the Jews or the Kuffaar would have been so humane.
what ‘truth’ does the kuffar cover? if you say there is no god and Muhammad is not a prophet. you are showing a lack of faith. samething as an infidel. without faith.
so how were the injured kuffar after the battle of badr treated?
Everybody drawing his/her own face actually. To draw skatches of any prophet is haram . Mohammad (p.b.u.h) look so beautiful that even Pacasso can’t have that imagination to draw that face.
People who draw him , will never get favour “shaffaat” on the Judgement Day.
Avoid drawing Him. Its a sin.
Make yourself so much pious and love His personality while reading and following about Him that He Himself show up in your dream , it is called “deedaar” . that is the only way to know His face.
With best wishes. Hamid ,japan.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7fkjv_pet-shop-boys-it-s-a-sin-1987_music
I’m confused by several of the comments. Is it forbidden to have pictures of just the prophet Mohammad or of any living thing?
That’s a good question.
Pictures can be drawn. But when it comes to people or creatures, if you draw a fictitious one, you must not draw the eyes because you’re giving something fake, a life and personality. But if you’re drawing a real person, that’s a different story. You could draw it for purposes like police sketches etc. But to draw someone for no reason is pointless and is dangerous. You definitely can not hang it up on the wall or glorify it. Read the story of Noah in Islam to understand why. Basically it’s because we humans are prone to doing dumb things over time.
It is not expressly forbidden in the Quran, the source of Islam. Later, some people opted to make it a crime by declaring it so in the Sunnah. So to be clear, it is not a sin in Islam but it is a crime in Sunnah society. It is important to make the distinction.
So you read and understand the Quran in the original Arabic? Without the benefit of tafseer made by people who follow the Sunnah?
You read the Quran in the order it was revealed? Because the current order it is in was defined and executed by followers of the Sunnah.
You read without a translation? You read without using a Classical Arabic dictionary, because the language used in the Quran is not the same as modern Arabic?
The dictionary, by the way, only survives because of the people of knowledge who upheld the Sunnah and ahadith for centuries. Strangely enough, no Quranist has written anything that survived all these centuries despite the fact that the Quranists were one of the first sects after Nabi Muhammad’s death.
Quranists have massive logical gaps in their thinking. It is madness to say you follow Quran only. That isn’t possible. Most of you follow a translator who used works by Sunni Musafers.
depends on who you ask. it’s kind of like music or women plucking their eyebrows (I kid you not, there is a hadith that says it is forbidden). or FGM.
funny thing about ‘the truth’. no one can agree on what it is.
These are all fabricated Ahadith. Associated with the last Prophet PBUH but the things he never said. The Ahadith about killing someone who leaves religion is also fabricated. The Quran says, Allah waits for them to return and those are the people Allah loves the most when they return. The Quran asks us to leave them alone. Ahadith can never contradict the Quran. People should use their own brain. If even Muslims cannot understand Islam, then what can we expect from brainless anti-muslim people?
The thing that is happening to the photo of Jesus after all these ages, do you know, what is going on over there? Some people paint him as a white man with blue eyes and blonde hair, while some paint him as brown. Well, in Islam, Mohammad PBUH is only a man, and not God, so having photos of the messengers, can lead to people worshipping them, rather than focusing on the true message of Islam, which is Peace. Why would we even want to have photos of Mohammad PBUH, when we know he was not god. When we know the purpose of religion was to let the humans know that God has created us, and he has created the Multiverse out there and the sun that is moving toward it’s ending point, and the fact that God originated life in water, and that the day is for spreading out into the world and earning an honest living, and that the night was there for us to rest. The picture of Mohammad PBUH is not the focus of the religion Islam, the focus is Humanity and how not to spread fear on earth and to spread love and peace. Why would muslims waste time in useless meaningless pursuits like drawing photos of the Prophet that they will never worship?
Wait, so anyone who criticizes Islam is an Islamophobe? Has it ever occurred to you that criticism of Islam’s ‘holy book’ and Islam in general are legitimate considering muslims killing innocent people all around the world right now?
It’s not that she’s criticizes it..It’s that she has made a CAREER of it and has incited unbelievable hatred to ALL Muslims. The woman is a whack job. She thinks Obama had a dad by the name of MalcomX. She even gets banned from Synagogues
so what. Muhammad thought he talked to an angel for 23 years. how much more of a wack job can you get?
Well, Mister…I’m assuming you to be Mike. There’s the question about yourself, are you an atheist or follower of any religion? If an atheist, what sort of idealism you have in your mind regarding a person who wants to be pursuing atheism?
yes, I am mike. sup munna? I snuck a couple past the gatekeeper on LW but i see now they are removed.
I’m an atheism.
sorry i don’t really follow your other question? i have no sort of idealism in mind for someone who is ‘pursuing atheism’. not even sure what pursuing atheism means?
Well, it was just curiosity to know more about you. You see, I don’t see many atheist, although I’m from India where there are billions of people, we got hardly a number of atheist on these forums. When I see on LW and on other sites, my curiosity grows. I’m told that US now possess maybe the largest number of atheist, how come this transformation taken place.
And on the other note, when I look around in my country and considering other countries also which have many religions or a single religion as primary thing, there I see sorta brain-washing trap when you got so many religious institutions like Missionary Schools, Madrasas and other Hindu religious schools. Small children are indoctrinated wholly into believing this or that sort of God leaving aside any possibility of thinking out of the box or questioning the written or coached texts. This leaves me thinking that atheism or rationalism or mere expressing of self does require some sort of education or guidance or even brave attitude on the part of the person. We are all stifling it to the extreme.
In that regard, I would like to hear about your US experience.
no problem. you can ask me anything. there are atheists on patheos. even an Iranian atheist or two.
I think the world as a whole has transformed quite a bit. I read somewhere that they said only 1% of the world was agnostic/atheist in 1900. now it is 16%. but I think the Europeans are leading the pack, not America. but yes, as a single country we probably have the largest absolute number, but per capita we are behind the rest of the industrialized west.
we got lots of people here attempting to brain wash you. I think America invented the televangelists. we have lots of religious schools here. I went to catholic school for 12 years. I was raised catholic.
I think for most people religion isn’t a public issue. our tradition of separation of church and state has lead to religion being a mostly personal thing. we do have a fairly large Christian right, what was once called the moral majority. but also with our freedom of speech, they are often ridiculed and they often say really stupid things so that is easy enough to do. you should check out rawstroy.com and not just the headlines on wacky Christian behavior. any article on muslims quickly turns into making fun of Christians.
You raised a good point about televangelists. Everything that is done in America is copied by others. Here we have in India a flood of these people, around 20-30 or more dedicated channels + news channels which have these televangelists as their permanent fixtures. But none of them have atheists. Maybe, US got even an atheist there as televangelist.
Regarding rawstory…I’m banned there, I don’t know when I commented there, as my posts are not getting thru.
yeah I’m banned there too for like the 12th time now. that is why I created the account memike, but I think they IP address blocked me rather than just an account block and I’m at my brother’s so I’m not going to mess around with his router. anyway, I think bill maher would be the closest thing to an atheist televangelist. cenk (something), the host of ‘the young turks’ on BBC America is an atheists, but he always seems to bend over backwards to defend islam for some reason. who are you referring to?
wow, 20-30 channels. how many total channels do you have?
Maybe, more than 250. We got so many languages hence, the number could be even more. However, due to sheer number of religions, Gurus and what not, it’s slug-fest out there as far as religious channels are concerned.
Regarding atheism, I asked specifically about US atheist because somehow I’m getting the feeling that it has the largest real number of atheist since, I’m not inclined to approve Chinese or Russian or other Communist countries as real atheist. China got a population of more 1.36 billion but I was somewhat shocked when I chatted with Chinese on chat sites. There atheism is more like deliberate ignorance imposed by the State apparatus and I’m assuming the same thing for other communist or dictator countries where they profess socialism and abhorrence of religion.
Real atheism for me comes from inner self and it requires education, courage and ability to rationalize. State atheism doesn’t impress me as it imposes certain other powers in place of God. When I see, so many bloggers from US and other EU countries offering real thoughts about atheism then, I realize that it does require much thought and conviction to be free of any indoctrination. Unfortunately, despite having a huge population in India, I hardly get to meet any real atheist thus, I have to find some foreigner to even discuss these things. Maybe, as having too many religions and all that disinclination, expecting to find good number of atheist is unreasonable expectation on my part.
well I don’t think it takes any courage in the west to be an atheist. I do remember a muslim woman (white convert I think)who calls herself Q did an article on LW abut how she was honored to host some international journalists and one was from india and she said he told her during one of the discussions that he was an atheists. they were in texas I think, Houston maybe, and she replied ‘cool’ and he said, ‘not where I come from’. in America being an atheist puts you in no danger. not even really of ridicule. I mean the religious among themselves might make fun of us, but they have learned not to do it to our faces. they know their superstitions sound stupid. great flood and all the animals on an arch. flaming talking bushes. walking on water.
maybe try facebook. hell if Egyptians can find each other,http://www.bbc.com/news/world-26129199 I’m sure you can find some atheists in india.
but yeah, y’all got a lot going on, on the subcontinent. did I hear once you have over 250 official languages in india? and certainly lots of religions. I had never even heard of Jainism or Zoroastrianism until like 5 or 6 years ago. how many Baha’i you got running around? buddists, Sikhs, Hindus, Christians, it’s a cluster fuck over there. I’m sure we have them all here too, just in much smaller numbers.
I guess the key is accepting criticism. I don’t think we have got the culture of accepting criticism with a cool face, hence criticism over internet is one thing while criticism in reality is another. You can very well say, that I’m the worst hypocrite in real life but really I don’t have any choice. It’s just that I keep silent when asked to perform religious duties and doesn’t take part in religious discussion.
Regarding Baha’i faith, I haven’t met any or know properly about it. The first time I heard that community name was when a beautiful temple was inaugurated in Delhi called “Lotus Temple”. You can find it more on google search.
Legitimate criticism is always welcome. Assertions that “muslims” are “killing innocent people all around the world right now” as if it is something exclusive to or supported by the Quran is not a criticism – it is ignorant, fearful and inflammatory. That is Islamophobia.
The only probably with your statement is that I can easily pull two dozen or more recent news articles linking muslims to terrorism/terrorist activities. At a certain point, you have to ask what is causing muslims to engage in acts of murder against innocent people. The answer is the Quran itself (also see: history of Islam and violence). If you’re not willing to acknowledge these two points, I’m afraid we can’t have a reasonable conversation about this. At the end of the day, not all religions are legitimate. Some are what we call false religions or cults and Islam happens to be one of them. There can only be one truth and that is Jesus.
In Europe In the 16th and 17th centuries tens of thousands of old women were burned at the stake to death in the name of witch hunting (p. 655, The Western Experience, 5th edition, McGraw-Hill, Inc). Before 1750, in the Christian West the witch hunting was legally sanctioned and involved official witchcraft trials. In the UK, witchcraft ceased to be an act punishable by law with the Witchcraft Act of 1735.
In France, in 1572, about 20,000 Huguenots Christians were killed on the command of pope Pius V. In 1568, Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in then Spanish Netherlands. In 17th century,
Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. “In a single church fifty women were found beheaded,” reported poet Friedrich Schiller, “and infants still sucking the breasts of their
lifeless mothers.” In 17th century, during the 30 years’ Catholic vs. Protestant war, at least 40% of population in
Europe decimated, mostly in Germany.
Spanish and Portuguese inquisitions, conducted by Christians killed thousands of Jews during medieval
period. Incas and Mayas of Latin America were exterminated by Christians.
6 million Jews were killed in Europe during the WW-II. In 1994, Christian Hutus of Rwanda slaughtered 500,000 –1,000,000 Tutsi who are also Christians. In 1995, Christian Serb militia killed more than 8,000 Bosnian Muslims, mainly men and boys, at Srebrenica in Bosnian. In 1982, Lebanese Christian Phalange militia killed 3,500 Palestinians and Lebanese Muslims at Sabra and Shatila refusee camps. During Spanish civil war (1936-39), 5000,000 (five hundred thousand) people were killed. Spanish are Christians. In Eastern Ukraine, during the last 12 months more than 6,000 people have been
killed, both sides are Christian. The list can be made longer.
Killing by SOME Christians does not mean ALL the
Christians are guilty. Killing by some Christians does not exonerate those Muslims who kill innocent people in the name of Islam.
Good post, what this shows is religion is bad, we need to evolve past this need to belong to a greater good and believe in each other.
Evolve past it to what? Atheism? But most atheists don’t understand evolution itself. You obviously don’t. Evolution doesn’t have a goal but you seem to think it does.
survival of the species.
Not a goal – an inevitable outcome, whether we like it or not. Good, bad, ugly – doesn’t seem to matter … though it does matter.
true not a conscience goal. but that is the theory. the giraffe’s neck got long to reach the food. the goal was food.
I always find it funny when people how think evolution is some conscious force, but then get upset about species dying out. I always say, ‘maybe the goal is to get down to only 1 mammal and one bird and one reptile…’ I think those flying rat sea gulls will be the last birds. they can drink sea water you know?
Silly sock, the giraffe’s neck didn’t get long to reach the food – the giraffes with the long necks survived and were permitted to reproduce due to their own advantage. Silly sock.
right you are again herr skol. it’s not evolution, it’s selected breeding. or survival of the fittest. or is it????
http://natureinstitute.org/pub/ic/ic10/giraffe.htm
Without having linked – no time to read – survival of the fittest, yes. If you were to butt Darwin up against Nietzsche, you’d find a good synthesis in my view. The oddest part, though they truly despised one another, much of what they say is not only compatible, but complimentary. Stupid humans, even intellects, arguing just for the sake of argument.
one of my favorite quotes. ‘for everyday we climb on the mountains of truth, even if we make it no higher, we are better for the effort. ‘something like that.
I think that was from The Gay Science. Good quote.
BTW, to both of the boys I mentioned previously, the fittest happens to be the most average. On the Origin of … and The Will to … are like two apples that think they’re unique, but they’ve been gene-spliced and are identical in composition.
Evolution does not have a goal. It is not conscious. However, it does permit inter/intra-human longevity on this little planet. I think we all need a good dose of reality, understanding and morality in one sitting – multiple times over, of course.
Believing in each other is to belong to a greater good.
skolly, sup? how are things over on loonwatch and hatewatch. I’ve been blocked again. your friends over there really hate free speech. they must be jumping over this texas thing.
I’m good. You?
Reply 2: I’ve been offline for a while – stupid real world got all up in my face. Of course you were blocked. Have you met yourself? 😉 My pals know we speak … I think … we’re good – civil at least. Yeah, we all jumpin’ over this Geller crap – hateful B-word.
tell me about it. I’m up in jax helping my brother move his company. he’s got more god damn inventory that anyone I’ve seen since the 70s. hell some of it is from the 70s. you need a chandelier? i’ll get you a good price Spanish or Italian crystal.
anyway, how is the studying coming? did you read the 88th book of bukhari? “whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.” funny but scary stuff at the same time.
Regarding my studying, very slow. I need to clear my mind to do so – and, as old as I am (not as old as I make myself out to be by the way), I’ve got little ones that take up a great deal of my time. To further slow me down, I’m studying historical context so that I can relate to the words that I read. Time-consuming with little time. I’ll git ‘er done though – worry not.
don’t worry, I never worry. have you gotten to the battle of badr yet? or is Muhammad still hanging out in mecca getting pelted by stones thrown by kids?
WAY too much going on, really. Not even close to that yet. I read in college, so I vaguely recall the story; but, no, not even close to that point – badr.
cool beans. don’t sweat it. you really aren’t missing much. 😉 anyway you have a good night. it’s passed the witching hour here, so I’m off to bed.
and remember Fredrick said: ‘blessed are the forgetful, for they get the better of even their blunders’.
Fair enough. You have a good night as well; and, please know that this site’s readers are quite good people. Come on, ‘fess up … give me that.
good morning herr. I’m sure most everyone in the world are ‘quite good people’. your girl AJ looks to be an excellent mother and I imagine a good wife. I always assume a person is quite good until they give me reason to think otherwise. as for the readers of this site, or any site for that matter, I don’t judge the ‘goodness’ or ‘badness’ of a person by some internet postings on a blog. I can disagree with people without having to label them as ‘bad’. too bad some others can’t do the same. oh well.
Good points.
so do you agree with the OIC (Organization of Islamic Cooperation) that there should be an international blasphemy law?
speaking of labeling people as bad. if you ever do read the Koran you will see we are labeled as ‘bad’. as ‘evildoers’, depending on the translation. it is islam that stereotypes people, not me. islam, like the white supremacist website you directed me to believe in their cultural superiority. funny how that works out, isn’t it? if you care to, jump forward and read Muhammad’s farewell speech. he would have made an excellent grand wizard of the ku klux klan.
I don’t think there should be an international blasphemy law. To me, freedom of thought, speech, and the exchange of ideas – no matter how uncomfortable – is far more important. In my view, that should be considered an inalienable right. You know I do my best to not personally offend others. I do, however, think that I should be able to state my opinion freely and even intentionally piss off another if I were so inclined to do so. It’s on me, at that point, to not trigger others’ instabilities into reaction – though any reaction should not be placed upon me directly.
awesome. e should all defend freedom of speech. unfortunately some American muslims don’t. did you ever see the uslim at the new York city muslim pride parade colling for a UN international blasphemy law? how about Qasim Rashid’s speech in Chicago?
There are folks from all religions, all walks of life that would love to shut down free speech. I do understand why they don’t wish to hear certain things that they will inevitably hear anyhow; but, then, it’s OK to walk away from assholes too – which, unfortunately, people have forgotten how to do. I vaguely remember reading about the story you have alluded to. I like to talk with someone who is willing to really talk to me – as you do with me, which probably drives some of my Homies crazy. I’m not willing to listen to Reverend Jeb and his literal Christian-take of the Testament that came prior to his own beloved New Testament, und so weiter. I walk away. I live and let live. To each his own.
“There are folks from all religions, all walks of life that would love to shut down free speech.” true. and they should be challenged every time they do so. so why the deflection? we are here on a site talking about the event in texas. talking as if muslims will simply draw pictures of the Muhammad they know down the street. yet two muslims drove 100s of miles to kill people for drawing cartoons.
sorry I don’t know who reverend jeb is?
live and let live. unfortunately I think it is devoid in islam. see 5:33. a great concept to be and let be. however, laissez faire does not exist in islam. they [and I usually try to say away from superlatives, but in this instant ‘they’ pretty much means ALL] believe in no separation of religion and governance. instead they [again almost ALL]
ask your girl AJ. or your friends on loonwatch. you did see the posts from AJ and Jekyll on the muslim girl article; “islam in short shorts’?
really, you should read the 88th book of bukhari in that link you posted. or the 85th and 86th. or 24:2 in the Koran.
islam is like the religions we grew up with. there is no live and let live.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7fkjv_pet-shop-boys-it-s-a-sin-1987_music
Deflection? Or, consideration. Hell if I know. The two crazy persons who proclaim themselves Muslims are two crazy persons who proclaim themselves Muslims. Neither your nor I can take away from their own crazy thoughts. That’s on them. That’s not on Islam.
Reverend Jeb is a bastard. I’m glad you know not who he is.
In the USA, Islamic governance is family based. Should a US law be broken, he/she who does not abide with US law will be dealt with.
I cannot speak for another, friend or foe.
I’ll read on, and I will discuss with you as I do
My hometown brand of Lutheranism, to which I do not subscribe, did in fact promote “live and let live”. I grew up in a tiny community that really did want others (even not like themselves) to flourish.
Most religions do have a common ring to us. Doesn’t matter to me. I know it matters to you. I’m fine with that. I’m me, you’re you, We matter more than either of the two of us.
my bad. I should not have assumed that your town’s brand of Lutheranism was intolerant of gays or lesbians. of Satanists or occultists.
“In the USA,” why are we limited to the USA? there are maybe 15million muslims in the USA. that would only be [Christ I’m pretty drunk, I’m going to have to do the zeros – 1,500,000,000/ 15,000,000 = 1,500/15 SO that is .001 or one tenth of one percent of muslims? is that right?] one tenth of one percent. that is statistically meaningless.
I see Hassan Shibly was featured on the loonwatch article on dominos in Florida. I used to email him. and I meet him once at a CAIR event in tampa. i’ll give you the same scenario that I gave him. keep in mind his response was that he is an Islamic lawyer and he would have to charge me $200 an hour to answer. [so what does that tell you].
if my Christian sister marries a muslim man. [you know because muslim men can marry jewish and Christian women, women ‘of the book’]. and then they have tow kids, a boy and a girl. then my sister and her husband die. let’s pretend I’m an educated man, let’s say a pediatrician with a masters in early childhood development. and my brother-in-law is a Somali cab driver. not to be too racist or stereotypical, but to say his English isn’t that good and he doesn’t have a whole lot of money. so, I show up in court arguing that I should be the guardian to the children. my sister’s brother-in-law does the same. now according to Islamic law, they s children of a muslim man should go to a muslim male. a wali. that means guardian in Arabic.
so you think American law should be put aside what is clearly best for the children for Islamic ‘family law’?
My HOMETOWN’s brand of Lutheranism was not intolerant of gays or lesbians (for the most part) – or, likely even occultists (juvenile and a temporary state, usually). Of Satanists – intolerant, however potentially able to be saved. The folks I grew up around cared – back in the 70s and 80s – they’d save almost anyone’s ass. I would never move back to my hometown – in your face your business is my business – nonetheless, most there do seem to care as do I.
ok great. my bad. I retract whatever statement got us off on this tangent.
I said as much: “my bad. I should not have assumed that your town’s brand of Lutheranism was intolerant of gays or lesbians. of Satanists or occultists.” I don’t know if that is deflection or what?
so. can you tell me what should happen in the scenario I laid out.
Regarding the WN site, I should not have called on you to arm up with me as I did. I knew you’d help – so, I asked for your help; and, I was pretty sure you would hop on in – for that I am thankful. Nonetheless, I should have fought my own battle – you’ve got your own, I’ve got mine. I’m happy we do align at times.
lol. dude, first I was like ‘what the fuck does WN mean.’ then I got it, white nationals. funny that they took more time to block me than loonwatch. no, I appreciate that, it was fun. interesting perspective they had. so do you think they might have been ‘quite good people’? or did their opinion automatically put they in the evil/bad category? do you think they loved their children too? the guy with his family social contract was funny. oddly enough I have one niece and one nephew dating blacks. should be interesting if they bring them to my parents for thanksgiving or Christmas. my father is a bit racists. he is big on the bell curve. but I doubt he would threaten anyone with elimination from the will. maybe time will tell.
I’ve been blocked by AmRen on each account I’ve created … I think. I would guess that most of that crowd is insecure and misled, not by race itself but by personal issues that somehow lead to a misinterpretation of “Like knows like”. Those folks likely enough love their children and family members immensely (how could I doubt that?) – they simply don’t know how to deal with differences in the tone of skin of others, or belief in “the god” that appears to be different than their own, etc.. Then again, some of them are clearly bad – forward, straight and out.
true dat. and I’ve been blocked on loonwatch on each account I’ve created. funny how that works out.
“or belief in “the god” that appears to be different than their own,” funny. that is almost the definition of islam.
“Then again, some of them are clearly bad” no doubt. so what do you think of 1drm on loonwatch? he comes across as a total asshole to me.
Regarding AJ, I’m glad we read her in a similar manner – excellent mother and wife. I’d trust her with my own kids without condition. I wish not to speak of others, however. I’ll get my free-for-all built eventually, someday soon – I hope – and, I’ll gladly invite “our girl” – she’s quite fabulous, concerned and caring – whether or not you or I might agree with her on each and every issue …
she is not my girl. I agree with her on very little. and I’m quite confident she doesn’t like me at all, and that is fine. and agrees with me on even less. I imagine she hates me quite a bit. SOME religious people tend to do that.
but it is all good.
OK, I’ve seen your interactions – I’m pretty sure she doesn’t hate you … she might not like you … but, from what I know of her, she does actually wish you the best. Then, again, I cannot speak for her … I can only speak for myself.
we all speak for ourselves. except those of course who are spokesman and women for organizations. and those who claim to speak for a god.
I imagine she wishes I (and you) become a muslim, because that is what is best for us according to the Koran. her opinion of me or wishes for me are of no consequence. just like drawing a cartoon of Muhammad should be. but alas, it can have deadly consequences thanks to some muslims. 😉
good night Herr Skolly.
Good night to you, Sock. We’ll square it away one day … likely in a nursing home … whatever. 🙂
cmyfe . • 2 days ago
This is rule of Atheism! absolutely no tolerance or freedom of religion. Another such example is North Korea. And yet the militant Atheists say Atheistic rules would be better than theocracies.
Religious people tend to hear atheist extremists (militants) more clearly than average old atheists because of perceived threats to livelihood – just as the reverse holds true, i.e., atheists hearing of religious people. Extremists/militants are far too loud for anyone’s good, yet they are a minority within any world-view.
what is an atheists ‘militant’? I’ve never heard of a western atheist commit a terror attack in the name of atheism? can you please explain it to me. this is a term I only recently started seeing.
I hope you at least gave the same reply to cmyfe on loonwatch? I tried to comment. i’ll have to see if it made it through moderation? I said secularism is better than theocracies. what do you think? would you like to live under a khalifa? or the pope?
HerrSkolly Khanage • 2 hours ago
Khanage, what, you devour Tanveer or something?
so sad. :…) is that how you make the crying face?
so are you BDSing china?
China is an enormously complex issue unto itself. I don’t know. In your view, should I be BDSing them or not? Why or why not?
sorry. my bad. I thought you would get that reference, having just been to the thread two hours ago. maybe three now. did you not see AJ’s hashtag. it was a joke. yes china is complex. forget about china. I thought I put like 5 spaces between the 4th and 5th sentence. they were meant to be unrelated. it sadden me that cymfe believes that a theocracy is a good form of government. and it saddens me even more that there is no one there to challenge such stupidity.
these muslims, whether you would call them radical or extreme or militant or not, seem to put themselves in echo chambers and do not allow for dissent.
so what is the definition of a militant atheists?
Some of the folks on LW live in Muslim countries and appreciate their own forms of government and think their own forms of government are best because they are guided by their god. I personally don’t have a problem with that – they’re not imperialists overriding we folks in the West, though they do have great issues with the imperialism that we Westerners have not yet shed. Theocracy could be a good form of government – provided its citizens are “like” believers and not out to conquer other nations. It would not work for me – I don’t wish of myself extra taxation, imprisonment, or execution. I don’t wish to challenge the citizen of another nation about their political system – my apathy sets in at times – I simply don’t care. Don’t get me wrong, I do have issues with human rights issues (i.e., kill the gays, blasphemy laws and the like). A world-wide discussion should be had over such topics. Hell, we should just start from scratch and permit people to choose to live in the country, under the government, that suits them best – of course that’s impossible – I was being facetious.
I’ll get back to you on the New/Evangelical/Militant Atheists. Got a deadline to meet right now. Take care.
“I don’t wish to challenge the citizen of another nation about their political system” yet the loonwatchers who you claim are non imperialist challenge the Chinese. clearly you see the hypocrisy in them?
“I don’t wish to challenge the citizen of another nation about their political system – my apathy sets in at times – I simply don’t care. Don’t get me wrong, I do have issues with human rights issues (i.e., kill the gays, blasphemy laws and the like).” you are the definition of a dichotomy. how is it you can manage to say something and then say the exact opposite in the next sentence.
you do know the theocracy that is Saudi Arabia has passed a law equating atheism to terrorism. how about iran’s law that allows a muslim to kill a Baha’i with no threat of legal recourse? ask you girl AJ about ordinance XX in Pakistan.
good luck with your deadline. I’m going to go get drunk. hopefully talk to you tomorrow. insha allah, lol.
The Loonwatchers cannot possibly “imperialize” China. Not possible. Though it is in their full right to challenge China.
I am a dichotomy – I know this, you know this. It even pisses me off at times. Middle kid, diplomat, invisible, whatever – me nonetheless. (I didn’t take your words as an insult but as a confirmation of who I am. Two Nietzsche paraphrases, since I don’t have the quotes before me: 1) That one is unable to contradict oneself is not a sign of truth, but of a personal inadequacy. 2) To be understood is more fearful to the genuine thinker than it is that he might be understood. *Damn, am I ever a mess – but, hey, I’m me.)
People such as you and I in SA should be careful.
Your a$$ is makin’ me wanna get drunk.
Later.
so when the loonwatchers challenge the Chinese law, they are doing what?
so you ask me to talk to the WN people. I do. I ask you to challenge cymfe. you don’t. you ask me a question I answer it. I ask you a question, you don’t answer it. I’m starting to feel like an abused wife in this relationship.
this isn’t ‘hatewatch’. pretty sure you can say ass here.
so what is a ‘militant’ atheist?
“Some of the folks on LW live in Muslim countries and appreciate their own forms of government” so you are telling me cymfe lives in a muslim country? could you please ask so I could see the reply?
Nah. Don’t want to address anything. You and I are good. I don’t satisfy your conversational wishes. How’s about we walk way from each other? Neither of us are getting anywhere. Be good man, and take care of you and yours.
clearly you don’t know me very well. I don’t walk away.
so what is a ‘militant’ atheists?
http://americanhumanist.org/news/details/2014-04-saudi-arabias-new-law-defines-atheism-as-terroism-b
“c” is a Saudi? that figures. the biggest hypocrites on the planet. so someone who lives in one of the most restrictive countries in the world, one that will not even allow a church to be built, is lecturing people on religious freedom. that is rich.
The militancy of the New Atheists is truly most visible in their own individual words, be those words in book form, as Tweets, or what-not. Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins are two that come to mind. Evangelizing atheism in the first place doesn’t make any sense to me. And, to further condemn any and all religious persons (as they do) is ridiculous – for they have no agent of condemnation unless they use their own hands.
Bland article on New Atheism – http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/New_Atheism
Conceptually, whatever. Their practice of Evangelizing their process of thought and demonizing any and all of faith is incredibly annoying – especially when we who hear their verbal snippets are aware of a robust world in which understanding of the human condition is far more important (in my view) than working toward homogenizing thought and practice in a universal manner. I, myself, would be bored being surrounded by millions of Me.
so it has nothing to do with war or the military? they aren’t violent in their actions. they just use strong language on twitter. I guess I should get a twitter account.
“Evangelizing atheism in the first place doesn’t make any sense to me.” but evangelizing religious thought does? why wouldn’t someone make their opinion known. why not make an argument as to why your opinion is right and the contrary opinion wrong?
“practice of Evangelizing their process of thought and demonizing any and all of faith is incredibly annoying” that could be said of all ideologies that spread dawah. “working toward homogenizing thought and practice in a universal manner” lol. that is the stated goal of islam. seems strange that you don’t see the militancy of that. especially when many of them are using actual guns.
I take it you didn’t read this link the last time I posted it for ya?
islamqa.info/en43087
No, nothing about war or the military. Militant is an adjective that is used outside those contexts – a description of attitude lacking flexibility.
Religious people evangelize to save the souls of others – a noble cause. None of us should be prevented from displaying our opinions. Stating an opinion is not evangelizing. Arguing one’s point is fine and dandy. Evangelizing the Great Nothing, however, is nonsensical – pushy just for the sake of being pushy. “You must believe me, you must believe in no higher power.” Turn off to me.
The stated goal of all religions that I know is to bring non-believers to the light. That’s the entire point of their evangelizing. I do see militancy in some evangelists – those that wish to rid the world of the “vermin” that is not their own. Why do these people care. I’d prescribe Valium to these folks if I were an MD.
I read the link previously. I’ll read it again.
“Religious people evangelize to save the souls of others – a noble cause. ” so if I don’t follow islam my soul is lost. damned to an eternity of hellfire. if I die in a state of shirk I will be a loser.
“Evangelizing the Great Nothing, however, is nonsensical” so evangelizing the (funny how you capitalize that) the Great Something is a noble cause?
“The stated goal of all religions that I know is to bring non-believers to the light” but if it is a false light than isn’t it more detrimental than good? how do the muslims manage to recruit suicide bombers? oh, that is right. you refuse to answer any questions. “The stated goal of all religions that I know is to bring non-believers to the light” the hindus on the white hindu blog claim they don’t prophesize. how many religions do you know?
“those that wish to rid the world of the “vermin” that is not their own” actually it really does look like you do need to read the Koran and the ahadiths. that is the definition of islam. this is the ‘light’? :9:30
Sahih International The Jews say, “Ezra is the son of Allah “; and the Christians say, “The Messiah is the son of Allah .” That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?
Well, thanks for applying one concept one way toward one people – because that’s quite helpful … and, quite telling.
what concept did I apply toward one people? you are the one who is saying that one ‘people’s’ evangelizing is noble and the other’s annoying.
I don’t care if the religious or the non-religious write books on their ideology and evangelize. you are the one that is not being even handed for some reason.
Paragraph 1: Yes, you got it.
Paragraph 2: Yes, you got it.
Paragraph 3: The Muslims do not recruit suicide bombers. Unstable Muslims try to recruit other unstable Muslims to reek havoc upon those that have reeked havoc upon those that they see as imperialistic powers, suppressive powers – those who beat them down simply because of who they are. The Hindus do prophesize whether or not they admit as much.
Paragraph 4: Those works do not apply to me.
Paragraph 5: Huh?
how do you know the recruiters are ‘unstable’? so boko haram is fighting an imperial power? al-shabada (however you spell that) in Somalia?
what did Nigeria ever do to the muslims because of ‘who they are’?
Somalia is like 98% muslim. who is the ‘imperial power’ that they are fighting?
that is a verse from the Koran. 9:30. muslims wish to rid the world of all ‘vermin’ that is not their own. why do you think iran has a law that muslims can kill bahai’i with impunity and there is no legal repercussions for murder of a religious minority. speaking of religious minorities, you are telling me that the Islamic State sees the yazidi’s as an ‘imperialist power’? that is crazy.
I’m pretty sure “c” lives in Saudi Arabia.
One more thing before I get my nose into my own business: I care greatly about All. We all live differently; and, it’s tough to parse our differences. A nation itself is, or should be, the embodiment of its own people. I care greatly that others elsewhere suffer; and, I am not an isolationist; however, there’s so much rude crap going on in the US that I simply have to focus on my immediate here-and-now. I’ve only got so much energy. I wish I could do more – I cannot, I’m spent.
There are undoubtedly Muslim people around the world who commit crimes, some of which is terrorism. Legitimate criticism of crime is welcome as we will condemn them as any law-abiding citizen – Muslim or not – would do, logically. I said legitimate criticism of Islam is welcome and you have not done that. The Quran itself specifically forbids this kind of violence and terror. The Quran itself specifically forbids imposing ones religious values on another. That is reasonable and factual. What is factual is that Islam is not a cult whereas Christianity most certainly is. A cult is a “a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object” which is a fair description of the worship of Christ. In Islam, we are expressly forbidden from veneration or worship of an individual person – whether it be Jesus or Muhammad.
interesting. some Christians might take offence to your description of their religion as a cult.
don’t hindus who worship different gods call their particular group a cult? “the veneration of any figure”, allah included, can be called a cult. don’t you think? you have just given the definition but somehow didn’t see how it applies to islam for some reason?
Oh dear… Rob no mate, jesus, Allah, budah it’s all our own little inventions to make us feel better about the end visible end
There are 150,000 estimated Muslims living in Texas. Two Muslims from Arizona, one of which should have been heavily surveillanced by the FBI and homeland security, we’re the only ones who responded.
Great logic there. We must all be violent because of the mentally disturbed people who attack others.
I’m going to use this logic to justify my fear and hatred of white men. It is their culture of violence as seen in video games etc which causes them to murder innocent people in mass shootings in malls, schools, businesses, movie theatres….
By your logic, we should be the most critical of the United States….it’s been killing innocent people for decades. We’re there no women and children killed in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, etc? Does this then make an ameriphobe?
Given that Pakistan’s blasphemy laws derive from the British colonisers of the sub continent, I think that we should be critical of Western governments and how they constantly meddle in other sovereign nations.
that makes no sense. Pakistan wasn’t a sovereign nation until the british left.
and if the now sovereign Pakistanis don’t like the blasphemy laws left by the british, why don’t they abolish them?????
All contemporary religion, whether we like it or not, is largely bull**** contorted to herd sheep. While I don’t necessarily agree with the premise of this contest, I do not think that we, as people, should be afraid to talk about, draw, or otherwise depict a figure because the penalty is death. I don’t care what religion you think is right, don’t ****ing tell me what to do.
Hey Toots, it’s not “islamophobia” if it’s the truth. Sure the truth hurts sometimes, especially when it’s rolling by on a bus for all to see, but that’s tough, innit? Don’t like it, move back to the cesspit of a homeland from whence your family fled.
I see the truth about islamophobia is hurting you Mr. Walter.
Hahaha. Where did your family flee from originally? You sure don’t look Native American to me…
You want me to move BACK to America?
Yeah, it really is about free speech AND tolerance. See, when Roger Maplethorpe displayed photos of a crucifix submerged in urine, nobody went on a shooting rampage. The intolerance of the extreme Christian community was limited to calls for elimination of Arts funding. Stupid, but tolerable. See the problem? By the way, I think one or two of those people in the video might have secretly drawn the prophet muhammed rather than someone they’ve met. Should they die for that? Do you see no need to protest that?!
I guess the death threats against museum staff and the physical damage caused to piss Christ and another of Serrano’s works was imaginary?
That happened in France by French Christians. So much for je suis Charlie!
I think someone attacked it in new Zealand as well. but the actual death tolls from muslims is continuing to rise. and it looks like things are getting worse, not better. from the hanifi siege in DC to salam rushdie, theo van gogh, catroon riots, Koran burning riots, france, Belgium, back to the good old USA (just an attempt though).
and then look at Pakistan and how many muslim countries have blasphemy laws. it’s insane.
I think you are confusing two incidents from around the same time. maplethorpe’s pictures where of a homo-erotic nature, not the piss Christ photo.
This is a cute response to Pamela Geller no doubt, and I give you credit for the creativity. But it also seems a little silly to me and that we’re missing the point. Like “OK, we’ll draw Muhammad, but not THAT Muhammad… it’s my cousin Muhammad!” Haha, I get it, but in the meantime there are people all over the world that are hacked to death, burned alive, put in jail and flogged, for drawing Muhammad, criticizing Islam, “blaspheming” Islam in some way… to me, as a Muslim, it does seem like the Muslim world has a problem, and it’s a blasphemy problem, and that’s what Pamela Geller is attacking primarily (even though I agree she is very shrill and amateurish in her approach).
And if she bears any animosity towards the rest of us its because instead of acknowledging the problem we just mock her. You might say that these atrocities for blasphemy are “isolated incidents” magnified by Western media… well guess what, Pamela Geller is an isolated incident too.. nobody else is drawing our prophet, yet we jump all over her. Raif Badawi, Farkhunda, Salman Rushdie, Sajjad Maseeh, Fleming Rose… what happens to them is not our problem. But when someone draws Muhammad… now you’re messing with us. Weird in my opinion. I know I’m in the minority here, but I just don’t get it. And I’m not even accusing this website of that, you have a lot of fair content that expresses diverse opinions here. But in general, I find people are a lot more willing to criticize Pamela Geller than, for example, angry mobs in Pakistan with torches.
It seems to me we should focus our energy on peer pressuring them to stop murdering people than on Pamela Geller to stop drawing Muhammad (which at the very worst is stupid and benign). Pamela Geller is not even in the same moral universe as the “Muslims” that kill people for blasphemy.
Thank you for being a reasonable voice in the Muslim community. You are what Islam desperately needs right now. I’m an Arab atheist, but if I were a Muslim, I would surely hope to think like you do. Please support other Muslim reformers so that this becomes a bigger movement – instead of what we see with supporting dishonest apologists.
Which reformers? ISIS, the Salafees, the Deobandis, or a different group of modern reformers?
Oh snap did you think Islam hadn’t been through reformation? Did you think reformation automatically meant a change towards a secular, human rights orientation of Islam?
Reality says otherwise.
I thought it was obvious that I was talking about reformation towards a more modern and pluralistic Islam. We need to support people that have these goals. They exist but most of them are branded with the “Islamophobic” label by knee-jerk idiots.
the salafi are rising. islam is reforming, backwards.
you think al ma’arri would be tolerated in Syria now? hell they didn’t even tolerate his statue.
I do agree that reform in how we think is pretty important. In my experience there is a strong sense of conservatism in our thought, an lack of willingness to speak or think about certain topics, deeply ingrained in our culture and religious institutions. I hope it changes and I support anyone trying to change that.
The thing I wish people understood is that even if you’re wrong about something… like, maybe you’re too liberal, or whatever… you’re still making a valuable contribution to the debate, because you’re asking the question and giving people the chance to evaluate and either strengthen their belief in the old conclusion, or refine their beliefs into a newer, better one. But there is a weird stigma about saying unconventional things… and that leads to a weird habit of not thinking anything but conventional things. That’s a problem. We have too much of an emphasis on “the unity of the Ummah” and way too much of an idea that by criticizing anything attached to Islamic dogma, you are criticizing God Himself. Criticism, irreverence and debate should be elevated. Conformity has its place, but it has too much of a place in our Muslim world. Allah will be okay no matter which we choose… it is for our own sake that I hope we choose the former.
I’m an atheist. I believe that all religions are myths, because there’s no supporting evidence for any of them. However, I also think that everybody should be free to believe whatever they want, as long as they’re not trying to impose their beliefs or self-imposed rules on others.
There should be more Muslims like you.
And Christians do not do that. Evangelical Christian are always harrassing me by knocking on my door. I wish there were laws against preaching religion in public like they have in Iran. I would love to see evangelicals executed for harrassing me about their cults. I hate evangelical christians more than I hate mUslims. I do not hate Muslims at all however I am more sympthetic to Shias than sunnis. It appears that there are more Sunni extremists than shia ones.
Well said, and I think you might like and endorse Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s (and many other’s) call for reforms within Islam with her book “Heretic”.
No offense intended but better still, dump Islam, it’s so absurd, seriously. The David Wood debates on YouTube can show you why.
Honestly, I do get the feeling Ayaan Hirsi Ali gets a bad rep, the Muslim world is very quick to dump on people who criticize it. And I don’t think all of her suggestions are bad ones. But I’m hesitant to endorse her views wholesale because I know she’s said a lot and I don’t know much about it. She probably also gets a lot of overexposure from people anti Islam folks who want a mascot. I feel like whatever she says, she’s a lightning rod for people now, and that’s unfortunate.
There’s no point in “dumping” Islam. Allah knows whats in your heart at all times, it doesn’t matter what you call yourself. I can be Muslim or not Muslim, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s important to speak out against bad ideas. And I don’t want to “dump” the Muslim community, it’s given me a lot and it’s really a great bunch of people. Yes, we have some issues but I take issue with anyone who says we’ve got more problems than, say, the West, for example. The issue most Muslims have with all the criticism, I think, is that so often it comes from circles that have their own hypocrisies and traditions of violence to clean up. It’s always easy to criticize the foreigner. And I must say my friend, with a handle like Canto 28, you’re kind of coming in with an agenda from the get go… not a very neutral or fair minded piece of literature you’re quoting.
But in general… I think the Muslim world has some problems and we could be more objective and less defensive about them. Just my opinion, what do I know anyway.
The question is not who has the most issues to clean up, the West or the Muslim World, but how are we to live with ourselves: are we to be rational as possible or irrational? After studying Islam, the Qur’an & Muhammad seem to me to be very obvious frauds. But I understand how it can be impossibly hard to publically leave Islam – like telling your family and community that they are dupes, that what they dearly believe is really based on a lie. Very painful process indeed even if your community doesn’t follow Muhammad’s command to kill you, as many Muslim communities would. At least speak out at bad ideas, as you say you would, but many Muslims can’t without being called blasphemers (also to be killed).
IMO for you, reading “Why I Am Not A Muslim” by ex-Muslim scholar Ibn Warraq is a better recommendation. At least he can tell you some interesting history of some bad ideas.
A full answer to the points you raised above would require an essay. But hopefully short responses help somewhat…
1) I think we are to be as rational as possible, and I agree that the Muslim world has a strange habit of subjugating reason to tradition; encouraging consensus and suppressing debate- not on all issues, but certainly some key ones. And it leads to bad consequences.
2) When you lay our traditions bare on the operating table and pick them apart with skepticism and irreverence I admit there is a lot to pick on. There were different standards and values back then, and of course the Qur’an describes a political atmosphere and politics is always ugly, even today. I have no problem with the our history and tradition, I have a problem with our (Muslims’) compulsive need to deify that history and tradition. But as a history and tradition itself, it is, historically speaking, one of the great civilizations in history, a tremendous success story, and one that is being held to very unfair standards by a society that believes in its own myths and has its own frauds (i.e. we’re a beacon of freedom to the world; all men are created equal; “free market” etc). Muslims are not just going to set aside 1400 years of tradition because “you know what… it’s just not logical.” You would not expect Christianity to change that way, you would not expect America to change that way. Life is more than just calculated rationality, habit and tradition and social ties are not impediments to rationality, they are part of the fabric of life.
3) Peer pressure to leave Islam is there in my opinion, but unfortunately that is fairly normal. It does seem to be on the far end of the scale in some places, but I honestly don’t know if it’s worse than any other religious or ethnic group in that respect in many other places. It’s not as uniform in that respect as people seem to believe, at least that’s what I think. As for the blasphemy culture… I think that the high profile killings and jailings that have gone on for “blasphemy” and “apostasy” are of course disgusting (every Muslim I know does, I should add). And I think it’s hard to know what to do about it. On the one hand, you could say “well Muslims should just speak out more…” but a lot of Muslims feel they have been doing it. Heck, speak out to… Who? I guess make comments in comment threads… so there you go.
But part of it is also that we cherry pick the stories from abroad… the Muslim world is, I think, more than just honor killings, more stuff does go on there. Here in the US we have our own form of twisted sickness… every day there is some story about some new form of evil that some lone weirdo did to a kid or something. What does that say about our culture? Why don’t you “speak out” against that? We basically do nothing about it… we just prosecute them and go on with our lives. Doesn’t America need to change it’s culture on account of all the rape and pedophilia (etc. etc.) that goes on here?
wow. I lot in there and so much of it flawed. first it is muslims and islam that claim perfection, so the ‘high standard’ is self inflicted. when you claim to know the one and only ‘truth’, people are going to judge you by that claim. second, america’americans recognize that we are human and flawed and that we don’t always live up to our ideals. yes, ‘all men are created equal’ was clearly a myth when it was written. hell, the author owned slaves. but that is exactly the point. we are evolving to an ideal. we stumble along the way, but look at the great strides made.
“There were different standards and values back then” yet muslims claim to know the ‘divine truth’. is morality not timeless if in fact there is a timeless ‘god’? do not most muslims in the world want to follow the example of the ‘prophet’? the sunnah? if Muhammad’s standards and values are antiquated, why try to emulate him?
Narrated ‘Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to ‘Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn ‘Abbas who said, “If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’ I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostle, ‘Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'”
“We basically do nothing about it… we just prosecute them and go on with our lives.” prosecuting someone and imprisoning them is hardly ‘doing nothing’. you have equated law breakers in America to the actual law in many Islamic countries. that is insane. plus if you don’t think there are organizations working against rape and pedophilia in America you must not be very observant.
speak out to your fellow muslims. speak out against Pakistan’s blasphemy law. Saudi Arabia’s law that makes atheists equivalent to terrorist. the Maldives law that you have to be a muslim to be a citizen. speak out against tunisa’s new constitution that states it is an ‘arab and Islamic country’. how racist is that?
“You would not expect Christianity to change that way, you would not expect America to change that way” yes I expect everything to change in a way that makes it better.
Yes, I think Muslims need to stop claiming they are in possession of the “Divine” truth. Having an honored tradition that we use as a guiding principle while using our God given brains to do what we think is right is fine I think, if not entirely wise. Thinking we have a book of divine laws that we simply need to follow in order to set things right (and punishing those who disagree) is… not.
I agree that recognizing imperfection and evolving to an ideal is a good attitude to take. But I can’t say that the Muslim world does not have that attitude also, we do in many ways… And I know that a big part of the concern of non-Muslims is that the ideal Muslims are “evolving” to is “creeping Shari’ah” but I just don’t see that in my community. It really does seem like more of a “fringe” movement to me. Most of us who are active in any way are engaged in a positive way that speaks of American or universal values. And there are some “Muslim” values (piety, modesty, charity, honesty) that we are “evolving” to (not that Muslims have a monopoly on those values, but they are thoroughly Islamic values in our traditional upbringing).
I agree that holding up Muhammad’s example as something to copy as if our salvation depended on it is a potentially bad thing. I prefer to see his life as an example and to see what lessons I can draw from it… speaking out against injustice that you see in your community, for example, is one thing that he did, and that’s honestly part of what gives me the strength to do it now. The idea of “destroying the idols” and worshiping God alone is also a potentially inspiring idea (i.e. don’t worship money, status, power, etc). Of course, this idea can be taken to an extreme and can be used to justify destruction of other people’s property and human rights, and this is terrible.
I do not believe anyone should be killed for leaving Islam. I am pretty sure that most Muslims- if not every single one- I know, would agree with me, despite examples in Islamic history that would justify the opposite. We do not take all those things literally, even though we say we do. The fact that there are laws in Muslim countries that say otherwise is terrible and something I would speak out against if I knew how, but I don’t live there, and how much can I do from abroad?
You’re right about the point about the laws in America prohibiting rape and pedophilia of course (whereas certain laws in Muslim countries sanction terrible things like punishment for blasphemy). And you’re right that it’s not correct to say we do not punish those people or work to stop those things. But my point is they still keep happening, and perhaps there is something of it that can be traced back to the culture… weak family ties (smaller families that are more fragmented), too many weird attitudes about sex… it’s a theory, it makes some sense. But I agree that we need LAWS against punishment for blasphemy, stoning for adultery, honor killings, etc. And if we can’t get Muslim governments to make them, we need someone in power in the Muslim world to say it… and until we get that, we need ordinary Muslims to say it. And there are Muslims who are working on that, but I guess they’re not making enough of an impact yet.
I too expect everyone to change for the better… but I suppose it’s not always clear what “better” is to everyone. People need time to work that stuff out, and changes involving millions of people take time. And dialogue, I suppose.
wow. next time I see someone say there is no such thing as a ‘moderate’ muslim, i’ll mention you. hell, that is down right liberal. so what community do you live in. because I went down to a local mosque, the Islamic Society of St. Petersburg and spoke with the Iman for like an hour and a half. my first question was about the hadith that says you execute a muslim for adultery, apostasy and murder. and the Iman said that was right. I qualified it that he mad no difference between ‘major’ apostasy (actually fighting the ummah) and ‘minor’ apostasy (just leaving the religion). he said you kill them both. then I asked about blood money and the murder getting off and he said yes.
well I can tell you of some websites where you can find muslims abroad. chatislamonline.com islam.com loonwatch.com. all of them have muslim who say the exact opposite of what you are saying here. do you ever read any of the muslim blogs on patheos.com?
“sure that most Muslims- if not every single one- I know, would agree with me” how many muslims do you know? 100? 1,000? you ever read the 2014 pew poll on muslim beliefs throughout the world? scary stuff to say the least.
I’m not saying you’ll hear what I’m saying here in most mosques (I admit I have expressed some fairly liberal views quite frankly here). I don’t know what Imam you spoke to in St. Petersburg. I can imagine an imam acknowledging the precedent for those things in Islam’s history, but I cannot imagine one saying those things and then not giving some theological/legal basis for why it absolutely should not be done in today’s society. In my best guess, most imams DO believe in the infallibility of the Qur’an and Hadith, but do NOT believe that it should lead to violence. If they do, I am being bamboozled along with you. But I grew up with these people and I just don’t see that in them. They want to find some balance that allows them to maintain their culture and traditions, but at the same time live peacefully in America and thrive here.
The “most Muslims I know” would absolutely not advocate that you should be killed for leaving Islam, or that you should be harmed for speaking freely on any issue. They might take offense at insults at our religion, but it would end there… I know of not a single Muslim PERSONALLY who would commit violence against anyone for blasphemy, etc, though I am well aware that it happens all too frequently. And I have seen the Pew poll numbers and I agree they are frightening, and it underscores the fact that the Muslim world has some work to do to get our house in order. But let’s also not take them for too much, when you poll Americans you get some pretty weird trends too about what people believe. Muslims are just as weird and diverse as Americans, just weird and diverse in our own way.
BTW, I hope that it is not lost on any MUSLIM readers… that what I have written here COULD get me killed or put in jail if I lived in a Muslim country. And all I am doing here… ALL I am doing… is exercising MY freedom of speech and mind, without insulting ANYONE. And I am doing it because I am fortunate to live in a country where I can do that… for the sake of those who cannot. So if you don’t believe Pamela Geller is doing free speech, that is one thing… but hopefully some Muslims who might not agree with the contents here will at least support me for speaking freely, tactfully and honestly on a complex and important topic. Freedom of speech is very important for America AND for Islam and the Muslim world.
“but I cannot imagine one saying those things and then not giving some theological/legal basis for why it absolutely should not be done in today’s society. In my best guess, most imams DO believe in the infallibility of the Qur’an and Hadith” that is a direct contradiction in two sentences. if an imam believes in the infallibility of a hadith, they why wouldn’t he support the killing of apostates? the 84th book of bukhari is titled, “dealing with apostates” and calls for their execution in at least a couple of hadiths.
“but do NOT believe that it should lead to violence” what do you mean by violence. now you are saying there is no death penalty in islam?
“If they do, I am being bamboozled along with you.” so some of the Koran is no longer applicable? or the hadiths? at least the parts that call for violent punishments? you do have me bamboozled.
I would love to see the numbers on American’s beliefs that you speak off. if more than 5% say you should be killed for leaving your religion I will be flabbergasted.
“I agree that holding up Muhammad’s example as something to copy as if our salvation depended on it is a potentially bad thing.”
You sound like a kaffir or munafiq. Muslims know they have the only true religion.
A full response to your points would require a book, probably several and they have already been written
by Ibn Warraq, starting with the one I already mentioned, and it’s like they were written with you in mind (affordable on Amazon).
Yes, there are lot of considerations, but the primary question to ask up front before any other seeking of answers is: is Islam a fraud, a 7th century fabrication by a fraud? One can deal compassionately & thoughtfully with all the other issues after and in light of the answer. And I think you know it’s a 7th century fabrication, whatever good you think came out of it. I’ll spare you the easy analysis of why it’s an obvious fabrication and just make a few comments on some of your ill-considered ones.
“I have no problem with the our history and tradition.” – you should, please see
http://www.politicalislam.com/tears-of-jihad/
which estimates 270 million killed by jihad.
“It is, historically speaking, one of the great civilizations in history, a tremendous success story.” – No it isn’t, it has kept the genius of Arabs and others in bondage to a
confining ideology denying them all the art, literature and science they would have created rivaling the great achievements of the West. Perhaps you were thinking of the few middle age centuries when Muslims (along with subjugated Jews and apostates in their midst, like Averroes – you might enjoy reading his
“The Incoherence of the Incoherence” refutation of Al-Ghazali’s (1058- 1111 AD) “The Incoherence of the Philosophers”, free download pdf from web) contributed
significantly to pre-modern science. That period ended suddenly for good ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oxTMUTOz0w&list=PL366C37FFC2760B08
, http://tinyurl.com/m2jvlgv )
“Muslims are not just going to set aside 1400 years of tradition because “you know what… it’s just not logical.” – True, but the illogical leads to factions, internal strife and movements like ISIS. A viable culture that supports full human potential cannot be based on the irrational. The Muslim world of the mid-East is an extreme disaster and cannot support itself and cannot live on foreign aid
forever. Continual infighting, massive slaughter, millions of refugees, water will run out, no real hope, eventually mass starvations, destruction & death are its future. The Qur’an says the Muslims will always be winners; they are clearly the extreme losers and have been since even before the fall of the Ottoman Empire. A great many naturally try to immigrate to the infidel West. Be honest.
I own Ibn Warraq’s book and did revisit it in the past few days based on your post. I have not read it cover to cover, but understand the gist… that the textual traditions that have been handed down to us are not nearly as “unadulterated” as Muslims are taught to believe, based on the fact that much of it was written decades, if not centuries, after the fact. It’s not lost on me.
As to the “primary question…” I have read more than a few accounts of Muhammad’s life. It is fair to say that all of them bring up at least a few issues that express values that, today, might strike us as conflicting with our own. You (and others) conclude he was a fraud- and I can understand that conclusion, especially given some of the very skeptical accounts that circulate, especially by people whose opinions many others consider suspect already (it seems to me that many of the people who think Muhammad was a fraud ALSO tend to think that Barack Obama is a secret Muslim). But even aside from those skeptical accounts, even the neutral accounts raise issues that we must grapple with, I concede that.
Ibn Warraq’s book seems to support the point that the true “history” of Muhammad is lost… and therefore, he becomes essentially what we want him to be. And hundreds of Muslims have been taught not about the “grey” areas of his life, but about the many GOOD examples that come through in the biographies. That he was sincere; that he was honest; that he fought injustice; that he supported charity and modest living. And you know what? They LIVE that way… hundreds of millions of Muslims (I assume… I only know thousands myself personally) are great, great people and they were inspired to be that way through the examples they were given from the life of Muhammad.
The problem in Islam, in my opinion, is when we deify Muhammad as infallible, then we give others license to take certain examples from his life (or even perhaps false accounts, if Ibn Warraq is correct) and give them the weight of divine sanction even when they don’t lead to good outcomes. In a sense, we can say “this is good because Muhammad did so…” instead of the better “we should do this good thing, look how Muhammad did it also.” the second one is where we should be, but the first is where too many of us are. And that is one of the points which I agree with Ayaan Hirsi Ali on (as I said, I do not know much of the rest, but that I agree on generally speaking).
So in short… you can believe Muhammad was nothing more than a fraud if you like, And nobody has the right to harm you for it. And I also object to anyone using such a fact as justification for harming others in Muslim countries (where I know full well that it happens that way). But it is both impractical and unfair to think that a huge civilization is going to agree with this conclusion (that he was a fraud) now, when they’ve been raised on another narrative entirely (and really, how do you know YOURS is the correct one? The truth is lost…).
As for the rest of what you wrote… I clicked on the http://www.politicalislam.com website but found it to be a pretty poor reference. The point that “India is now 50% the size of ancient India” struck me as highly uninformed, there was no “ancient India,” and you cannot blame the partition of Pakistan on “Islam.” This website seems to want to take every single act of mass violence in the history of civilization that was in any way connected with Muslims, and blame all of it on Islam. It blames slavery on Islam, without giving figures for other civilizations as a point of reference. It talks about Christian deaths as the hands of Muslims, without talking about how many Muslims have been killed by Christians. It really stretches credibility, and come on, you know I’m trying here. And to top it off… the same website tries to blame (something incoherent) on President Obama, so right there I know I’m dealing with someone of- let’s say, “questionable objectivity.” (Not that liking Obama is the measure of objectivity, but the anti-Obama stuff at least belongs on a separate blog, instead of one anti-Muslim, anti-Obama megablog).
And as for the bit about the Muslim world not being a great civilization… all I can say is this… you sound like a well-read person. You know quite well there is an “alternative” history of the United States. One that deals with slaughter of Native Americans, slavery, racism, mass consumer capitalism gone wild, economic exploitation, and a foreign policy that is shockingly callous about the loss of non-white human lives in other countries (and some would say even here in America).
Why is that not taught in schools?
Because that’s not the whole story. Yes, you’d have to be ignorant not to think that all of that stuff is a part of America in some way. And yes, foreigners (Muslim countries included) are missing a big part of America if they really think that that is all we are. They gloss over our culture of freedom, of intellectual debate, of tolerance and multiculturalism, of individual rights, of self-governance… these are all thoroughly American concepts.
So why do some people want to work so hard to uncover evidence that Islam and Muslim civilization is just rotten through and through? How does that even sound plausible and realistic to you? That’s not the way the world works… Islamic civilization was good in some respects, bad in others. Let’s just celebrate and honor the good, and work to learn from the bad… I feel like the Muslim world needs to do this more than anyone, but today it so happens it’s you I’m addressing.
The same can be said of the Christian bible too. I think all religions have lost their way because of flawed, fallible human agendas. Find the universal truths and beliefs that are in all religions and begin again.
i m glad to see that some muslims put on some effort to eradicate the main ideas about regression that says muslims have closed minds eventhough they don t live in arab countries , i m a muslim living in an arab country ( algeria ) and i can tell that just in my high school i can find a lot of people that have think the same way as you do , but it will surely take time for some other persons of our community to share this liberal refreshing thoughts. but saying that it will get you killed or that you ll be a victim of some reprehensible act is false. most of the people, if they don t agree , i think won t forbid you to express yourself.
Well said
Indeed, Pamela Geller is a kafira and all disbelievers are in the fire forever.
As for Muslims who kill unjustly but still die as Muslims, sooner or later every Muslim who is in the fire exits it.
The headline of the campaign “Pam Geller Wanted Us to Draw Muhammad. So We Did.” missed the point. No one demanded that Muslims draw Muhammad. No one cares whether Muslims follow Islamic blasphemy laws and refrain from drawing a picture of Muhammad. The point is that *non-Muslims* don’t have to follow those laws, any more than non-Jews have to keep kosher. So it isn’t that Geller wants everyone in the world to draw Muhammad. She only wants non-Muslims to have the right to ignore Islamic blasphemy law. That’s what “decency, tolerance and pluralism” means — you don’t force other people to follow laws of a religion that they don’t belong to.
So Israel is a bad nation because they don’t allow Christians to be missionaries? Because their defense force has repeatedly defaced Christian churches in occupied Palestine?
Is Ms Geller a kin of Yuri Geller?
“What she does know, however, is how to rally the troops to incite racism.” EXACTLY what RACE has Geller gone after? (Correct Answer: None)
Right. Because Islam isn’t a race, what Geller says can’t be racism.
That’s why she picks on Muslims, by the way. It’s the perfect cover for her hatred of the Goyim.
I knew a Nazi would show up.
1) When are we going to see this cartoon of the Prophet that won the contest that caused all the fuss? Or are we children who need to be protected from adult things? 2) There are loads of images of Mohamed from the historical Islamic world done by Muslim artists – if they can do that why cant we. 3) I am not a Jew and do not have to avoid pork – I am not bound by their rules and the same thing goes for other religions I do not subscribe to. 4) Being critical of the Prophet is not necessarily racist – it could be (protected) fair comment.
it is reported that the cartoon that won had Muhammad saying: “you can’t draw me.” and a word balloon comes from off page and reads: “that’s why I am.”
:p Nice one sis !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQfvZXZjg5U what honest americans think about pamela? certainly not good!
MuslimGirl, yet again I must thank you for permitting me the droppings that I have left here. You are very generous in permitting as much as you do in your posting threads. Take care. All good.
I don’t think that there should be any ban on drawing cartoons or any art piece as long as it doesn’t hurt some living person individually or make mockery of it. And also, I don’t think that drawing pictures of person long gone doesn’t put any harm for the present lot. There are clearly guidelines that can be enacted which can put aside any mocking or insult for even the dead peoples hence, no need to get excited.
It should be also noted that drawing of paintings, caricatures, art have long been the pastime of humans since the evolution. Caves have been found containing the paintings of this or that thing which are done by the ancient breed of humans. The expression of art is the natural instinct of humans, anybody trying to curb it in the garb of religion or culture or just brute ideology is to be condemned by all sane people.
http://www.ommeldonia.com/gallery/2012/September/Egypt/Mohamed-Morsi-Drawing.jpg
What they are doing astagfirullah allah knows the best we believe on Islam and our last moment of our its a message for all non muslim s
What does Pam Geller think the definition of Jihad is?
Just a pack of US punks pretending to be muslim. There’s nothing islamic about u
Depictions of Muhammed are extremely offensive because it goes against the Islamic faith
So, as a reaction, people depict a Muhammed they know?
?????
Every single one of them is now on a hit list … NOW can Pamella Geller stop praising Muslim appeaser / funder / deceiver for Muslims
klong
enough
to
get
him
to
Draw