By Check out Deedra Abboud, a Muslim, pro-gun Democrat running for Senate in Arizona. Deedra is a hijab-clad attorney, who formerly launched and directed the Arizona chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, and is running for public office for the first time. She is a fierce advocate for religious freedom, and the separation of church and state, and believes that serving others is the one of the most patriotic things Americans can do.
The daughter of a Sheriff’s Deputy in Arkansas, Deedra’s mother was “instrumental in creating child support enforcement efforts in Arkansas” and remains and inspiration to her daughter who actually converted to Islam after spending some time trying to convert Muslims to Christianity. Deedra Abboud has gained national attention because she seems to symbolize the very things that President Trump has tried to portray as mutually exclusive, Islam and America. Learn more by watching the AJ+ snapshot.
This woman is not a Muslim. She is a captive of a Muslim husband. You celebrate these phoney converts, but they are the ones most likely to induce a backlash on Islam when they can put up with it longer and spill the beans.
You can’t cage a bird born free and expect it to be the same bird.
“Phony converts”…I have to ask, what, in your mind, makes someone a “real” convert besides, um…CONVERTING? Sigh.
I’m Canadian and so haven’t followed this woman’s political career, but I say good for her, and good for Muslim Girl for showcasing her achievements.
It is highly unlikely that this woman believes in Islam. She is probably too bright. She has been bullied into it by a Muslim husband. Islam can only exist through fear and force.
The minute she splits up with her husband, she will leave Islam and she will become an outspoken opponent of it.
So very funny. Probably unintentional, on your part. Please go tell, for example, Amina Wadud that the only women who convert are those who aren’t intelligent.
The fact her father was a Methodist minister means that she was just rebelling.
Put a shotgun against her head and she will cry for her Daddy.
Not sure where you get any of your conclusions. Converts come from a variety of backgrounds; unless you know this woman personally, you have no ability to comment on her choices. Her Islam is between her and God; you and your judgements form no part of it. It seems like you have a hard time with that idea.
Of course I have a hard time with it because I want to dismantle Islam for the good of the human race. We have bigger problems to solve and Islam is getting in the way.
A child with a basic knowledge of mathematical predicates and propositional calculus can destroy Islam.
I could do a youtube video tomorrow that would completely disprove Islam, but that would temporarily cause greater problems as I imagine that one billion muslims would suddenly revert to their original faith which (I’m a scientist not a historian BTW) I imagine would be Jewish, and that would cause potential social upheaval.
You still haven’t given an example of an intelligent Muslim who converted naturally.
While it’s not actually my responsibility to provide you with a list of resources (asking others to do your homework for you is a jerk manoeuvre), I will point out that I DID give you an example of an amazing convert: Amina Wadud. I’m reluctant to write you a lengthy annotated list of the many brilliant converts out there (since I’m tapping this out on a cellphone), but for the benefit of anyone besides you who is reading this, I’ll point out my two faves, Amina Wadud and Scott Kugle. Both feminist authors. Try Wikipedia for more info (as in, do your own work).
Your YouTube video. All I can say is, go ahead and have your fun. Link it on here so we can all entertain ourselves at your expense. But remember that actions speak louder than words, so until you DO both create and post your stunningly awesome video, you should probably not brag about it.
And last: if you hate Islam so much, why are you lurking on this site?
Ok, that’s enough typing on the keyboard of a phone for now!
Ooh yes! Her: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._Willow_Wilson
G. Willow Wilson = super-awesome!
She nor the academic are Muslims; at best cultural Muslims as their work is so entwined with the Arab world.
That cartoonist is especially cynical, exploiting a market opportunity for financial reasons.
They think they’re Muslims, but they don’t ultimately decide. The non-Muslim majority of the world will democratically and objectively decide who is Muslim or not. And we are telling you now that those are not Muslims.
Do you actually know how a person converts to Islam? I mean the literal steps, not the personal inner process of spiritual reflection. To be brief, non-Muslims do not, in any way, get to decide who is or is not Muslim. Being Muslim is between the individual and God. If a person, with sincere intention to convert, gives his or her shahadah (declaration of faith) before witnesses, he or she is then Muslim. They “count”, whether or not they are also married to a Muslim; whether or not they publish works to do with Islam; whether or not they wear hijab; whether or not they run for political office; whatever else. If they said their shahadah and meant it, they are Muslim. You know who REALLY ultimately decides? God.
I really have no idea what your criteria are for what makes someone a “real Muslim”. It seems like converting, practising the faith, and both publicly and privately living as identified Muslims doesn’t make your cut. So…what in the world DOES? And…why should actual Muslims, converts or not, take your definitions of us into account?
Firstly please stop capitalising words for emphasis as it can appear aggressive.
I don’t care about your definition of Islam, I simply want to move forward and provide an alternative. I have a 3 pronged attack:
1) Judaism: monotheism with the least surfeit of prophets.
2) Buddhism for the meditative and praying a lot aspect.
3) Paintball for the Jihad bit.
I am actually drawing up a patent for a such a theme park that will deprogram Muslims. Imagine doing paintball in and around Buddhist temples.
And yes, there will be a bar serving alcohol.
Between your YouTube video and your patented theme park, you sure are busy! Again, words are NO substitute for actions, so if you DO have all these wonderful, world-changing plans, um…where are they? Oh wait, I forgot: the massive global societal shakedown you’d surely cause. Hm.
A friend of mine recently read this comment thread and pointed out that you tend to use the “No True Scotsman” fallacy. I hadn’t heard of it, but in researching it I found this definition: it is the attempt to “protect a universal generalization from counterexamples by changing the definition in an ad hoc fashion to exclude the counterexample …This fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule”. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman).
This sounds like your comments. To recap your main points throughout this exchange:
Comment 1: You focus on “phoney converts” but do not define what you think constitutes a real or sincere convert.
Comment 2: You reiterate the “captive” theme, but don’t address my question about your definition of “phoney” converts.
Comment 3: You declare, absent reason, that being the child of Methodists AUTOMATICALLY MEANS one’s conversion is simply rebellion. Still no definitions, reasons, or compelling arguments are provided.
Comment 4: “Math and YouTube can defeat Islam and I can do that but no argh social upheavalllzzzzz!!!” You go on to ignore/deny my earlier comment pointing out Amina Wadud and Scott Kugle.
Comment 5: In a grammatically odd phrase, you decide that Amina Wadud and Scott Kugle, both converts, are IN REALITY “cultural Muslims”. You also – without explaining how – tell me that non-Muslim get to decide who counts as Muslim.
Comment 6: Now you’ve decided to design a theme park. And you have a “3 pronged attack”, which is actually a list rather than a plan of attack or a defined approach to problem-solving. But hey – alcohol!!!
How…does paintball…around BUDDHIST TEMPLES….”deprogram” Muslims? I. Can’t. Even. Just gonna go read that line to my family; they will also get a huge kick out of it. I’m having more fun with you than I’ve had in AGES of comment-reading! Whee!
Lastly, I have no intention of listening to your tone-policing about my USE OF CAPITAL LETTERS for emphasis (http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/12/tone-policing-and-privilege/). If you plan to keep commenting here, you should know that me AND MY AGRESSIVE LETTERS are going to be right here to gleefully type back. Happy plotting!
tldr;
here’s a new one:
CLGSC
capital letters? go stand in the corner.
Cute. Will probably use. Did you look up the concept of tone policing, btw? You’re still doing the No True Scotsman thing. 😉
1) You cute too
2) Good
3) No
4) What?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFacWGBJ_cs
Where’s your “clear, on-topic, and detailed post”? This is a random video.
Are you done with the conversation? I’ll check back in tonight, but I’m not going to bother to reply to silly stuff from you. Be serious or go away.
I know you’ll check up on me, because your deprogramming has commenced and it would be dangerous to back out at this point.
And when – as a Muslim woman with the same legal status as a chicken – you have your epiphany, you will deprogram another 2 people, and they each will deprogram another 2 and we will all elegantly dismantle Islam in a sexy geometric pattern.
Is THAT your clear and well-reasoned reply? I guess it is, kind of, tangentially, barely, on topic….sort of…
Come on, surely you can do better than that!
Out of 1 billion, please provide us with an example of an intelligent muslim convert who:
1) Wasn’t introduced to Islam by a partner
2) Wasn’t originally religious
3) Didn’t originally work in any capacity with the Arab or Islamic world
If you removed the need and pressure to be muslim from Muslim countries, then very soon 50% of the population would walk away from Islam.
50% being the proportion of people of higher than average intelligence. Islam is nothing but a political construct for governing poor people.
There is no God, just as there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster. And you are wasting your time and your life.
Well, at least you have (kind of) managed to stay on topic this time. Well done you! However, it’s increasingly clear that you’re not actually reading anything I say (in which case, why are you bothering to engage with me?) nor are you following up on any of the people I have mentioned. Oh well. I did my bit to educate you; now it’s up to you. I have REPEATEDLY given you some names of smart converts, who consider themselves feminists, who did not convert because they married a Muslim, and who didn’t start out working in majority-Muslim countries: Amina Wadud. Scott Kugle. G. Willow Wilson. Heck, some of the writers on the MuslimGirl site! A bunch of my friends, who there’s no reason for me to cite because of course you wouldn’t know them. These folks and I are in accord about many things and disagree on many others because Islam is as multifaceted and diverse as its believers. If you can’t be bothered to look up the famous ones and actually read their stuff, that’s your decision. I believe you are the poorer for it, not because I hope to convert you (a personal choice if ever there was one!) but because you might learn something.
I read over your comments again, and overall you seem like less of a jerk than many non-Muslim folks who troll around on Muslim sites (just to be COMPLETELY clear, simply being a non-Muslim on a Muslim site doesn’t make someone a troll!). You continually try to move the goalposts when commenting, but you don’t swear, you don’t use too many obvious slurs, and your grammar and spelling are reasonably lucid. Which makes me wonder, who are you that this is taking so much of your time? I wouldn’t say I’m “enjoying” our conversation, but I stick with it because it’s relevant to me as a Muslim and especially as a Muslim parent: I want my kids to inherit a world where folks like you are literally the worst of the haters they will encounter, rather than among the more polite. But if you seriously have issues with Islam and Muslims, your way of “correcting” us seems, at best… kinda futile. Are you just very, very new to engaging with people whose beliefs are different from your own (that’s not intended as an insult; I just have no real sense of who you are)?
Btw, are you finding our comments seem to not be linear anymore? Are you replying to earlier ones or something?
I want to correct Islam because it is not what you think it is, and it’s just embarrassing watching people being part of it. You don’t need an off the shelf religion to have a connection to any potential higher power.
Just as Jesus appropriated the Abramamic tradition to create a political revolution, Mohammed had the same bright idea but to create a system of governance with a built in legal system and policing system based on deterrence. Policing on the cheap, as they say.
You should embroider that last paragraph on cushions and give them to your children when they are ready. If you promise to do this for me, I shall let you go about your business in peace.
You said “…it’s just embarrassing watching people being part of it”.
But YOU are the one who chose to visit and endlessly comment on a Muslim site. No one is tying you to your desk, propping your eyelids open, and gluing your hands to your keyboard. If you’re “embarrassed”, you have choices. Personally, I tend to choose NOT to engage with stuff I’d find embarrassing.
You said “You don’t need an off the shelf religion to have a connection to any potential higher power”.
I agree. Again, though, you don’t get to determine anyone’s spiritual choices for them. If I, or anyone, wants to belong to an organized religion, that’s up to us.
You said you would “let (me) go about my business in peace”.
I think you’re overestimating your importance and your influence. I’m on this site because I enjoy MG; I’m engaging with you because I’m argumentative, long-winded, and entertained by the dumb things you say (my fave so far has been the Buddhist-temple-paintball theme park…wow). But you don’t exactly disturb my peace.
And…seriously…embroider on cushions? What Orientalist fantasy are you entertaining about my home decor?
If I’m honest, I’m not sure why I’m doing this. Always been liberal minded and my parents are immigrants. It’s mostly instinct I think.
It’s like, look at those nazi and KKK cretins. How many are women? On the other hand, how many prominent anti-Islam activists are female? At least half if not more. Women are generally less likely to follow the herd and and are more objective, instinctive; and yes, liberal. So what’s going on?
It’s like forest animals twitching their nose because they can smell a far off fire.
Have you read any other articles on this very site? Have you asked yourself what’s up with all those intelligent, devoutly Muslim women?
I know this can be tough. I have found that a lot of otherwise liberal folks have ingrained prejudice when it comes to Muslims. (There’s a good article about this here: http://everydayfeminism.com/2017/08/microagressions-muslim-women/) Anti-Muslim bigotry and Orientalism have a LONG history in Western societies (I’m a historian, by the way; don’t want to go into all the details but a great book to read on this subject is Islamophobia and the Politics of Empire, by Deepa Kumar…a non-Muslim btw).
There are indeed a lot of anti-Islam women. Some have had bad personal experiences, which they generalize out. Others, frankly, seem to be in it for the book deals and the fame. Sometimes there are relevant criticisms mixed in with their hate; however, in EVERY instance where this is the case, Muslim feminist activists are making the same criticisms. Again, I find the MG site here, as well as muslimahmediawatch.com, is great for this.
You don’t seem like the type, from what I can tell, to spout mindless bigotry. No one is asking you to love all Muslims, but I hope you will at least see that we can, and do, speak intelligently for ourselves.
Btw, I think we’re being more civil to each other! Well done us!
Maybe I SHOULD delete this one. You seem to have lost your civility.
Nope, it’s just got too many peoples’ backs up, whose opinion I trust. And please don’t try to patronise me by discrediting Douglas Murray or Anne Marie Waters. In the politically correct UK these people have everything to lose, not just book deals.
My mistrust is not innate either and probably started as a child watching grown men burn Salman Rushdie’s book in the street.
That was the “uh oh, something’s up here” moment for many people.
See Karen Armstrong (since we’re talking of folks in the UK), author of A History of God or Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet, on the international Muslim response to Salman Rushdie. A quick quote: “…almost exactly a month after the fatwa, at a meeting of the Islamic Congress, forty-four out of the forty-five member states condemned the Ayatollah’s ruling as unIslamic – leaving Iran out in the cold” (Armstrong; Muhammad, A Biography of the Prophet. Preface to the 2001 edition, published by Phoenix Press).
I think you’re missing my point, though. Muslims don’t need you – nor your friends who share your prejudiced opinions, nor racist authors and UKIP politicians who hate Islam and Muslims – to determine our spiritual lives for us. You don’t get to speak for us; when you try, your prejudices only become ever more achingly obvious.
Sad. You were beginning to do so much better.
Don’t worry, I’d never read a Douglas Murray book (although I know people who have – and I’d have recommend something a bit lighter for these occasional readers). I’m a part time troll, but he still fits a convenient corner piece in the jigsaw of my perception.
I’m still happy to tell you about some things that annoy me about Islam, here’s one:
#1 Muslims describing Islam as ‘Beautiful’ or ‘Perfect’ or ‘Eternal’.
No matter how devout adherents of other religions are, I never hear them using overcompensatory florid terms like this.
When people use terms like this I imagine Kim Jong Un’s generals clapping and crying in ecstasy after he fires off a missile.
But again, you’re taking a few examples and, from them, positing that ALL Muslims do this. We don’t. I don’t, my friends don’t, etc. You also shouldn’t take my personal feelings on this as universal, either. It IS florid, imo. Other people may not intend it that way…or they may be ok with being florid. Btw, I have certainly heard adherents of other religions use such terms, or similar equivalents. I don’t, though, assume ALL members of Religion X believe, think, or speak that way. I assume diversity is baseline.
I guess I would phrase it as “something that annoys me is those Muslims who do x, y, or z”, rather than as “Some thing that annoys me about Islam…”
Omid Safi, in the intro to the book Progressive Muslims, has this to say (it is tl, but I hope you can resist the urge to dr…):
” ‘Islam’ does not get up in the morning. Islam does not brush its teeth. Islam does not take a shower. Islam eats nothing. And perhaps more importantly for our consideration, Islam SAYS nothing. MUSLIMS do. Muslims get up in the morning. Muslims brush their teeth, Muslims shower, Muslims eat, and Muslims speak” (published by OneWorld, in I think 2001).
Hey, we’re almost chatting in real time!
#3 Hijabs. The western world has reached a moral and aesthetic juncture were we can look at each other objectively and appreciatively, and Muslims are destroying this with headcoverings (and now muslim men are largely doing it with their chins as part of the same effort).
We’re happy that the occasional Nun, motorcyclist and re-animated egyptian mummy needs to cover up, but the whole thing has as much to do with politics as modesty, and you know it. I like looking at hair and chins.
Ultimately it is like an, erm, REVERSE MICROAGGRESSION to the western eye, and you know it.
That’s your lot for a while, I’ll be back in a couple of weeks.
“I like looking at hairs and chins”.
Right there. That’s why. Isn’t “My body, my business” a major feminist rallying cry?
If you really think we’re at a point where we just respect each others’ bodies as they are, I’m calling you out on counts of racism, sexism, ageism, ableism, gender-policing, and fat-shaming. Holy shit, what bubble do you live in?!
Btw my two earlier responses to you #1 and 2 are being weird and not posting. Maybe they’ll show up soon.
Um… a couple weeks? I’m not sure I care enough to stay on this thread that long. Whatever; I’m sure you’ll encounter me on some other article.
Dominant beard wearing Muslim men and their Hijabi wives.
The average saudi lady will be sitting there all day friggin’ her peanut.
I’ll give their cocopops a good milkin’.
#2 Muslims proselytising about Islam in order to correct people’s prejudices. Surreptitious dawaa.
Like inviting people to join them in breaking the fast during Ramadam following the latest Islamist terror attack.
Most people are very happy with their prejudices, thank you very much, and it is unlikely that immersing them in the thing they are prejudicial towards will correct it. It’s Islamphobia, not Agoraphobia.
Hm, I just replied but its not appearing. Will try again…
I’m not trying to convert you, nor *correct* your opinion so much as encourage you to add nuance and consider that there is variety among Muslims.
I began talking to you, way back when, to suggest that your view of converts was incomplete and one-sided. You don’t have to like or agree with specific converts or born-Muslims. You don’t have to like or agree with the tenets of our faith. But I do expect you to respect our rights to be the authorities about our own personal experiences. When you say things like, to paraphrase, “This convert woman is not serious/is not really Muslim/ is just rebelling”, you are assuming an authority you simply can’t have, because you are not her.
If you were or are an atheist, I would NEVER assume I had the right to say “You’re just rebelling to piss off your parents. When you mature you’ll get bored of atheism”. I may not like or agree with many of the atheists I’ve met, and I may not agree with their general cosmology, but I would never presume to speak for them. It’s rude, and worse, it would prevent me from seeing them as fellow complex human beings with their own individual and nuanced stories.
Nuanced?
Any human being that forces their children to wear hijabs and pray 5 times a day is committing child abuse. Nothing else.
Go tell that to your friends with 50 shades of nuance and just hope there are more doves in the world than hawks.
Where you at? I’ve got quality iPad time with you the next couple of hours.
Where am I at? I’m still waiting for some kind of clear, on-topic, and detailed post from you. I’m beginning to suspect I’m going to have a very long wait…
By the way, I haven’t deleted any of my comments, but I DO edit when I realise I’ve made typos. That’s probably what you’re seeing.
You’re already deleting and editing your comments.
If this is all about Islam, then Islam can patently not be trusted.
Not deleting (not sure what you’re thinking of there), but I DO edit for typos and, if necessary, grammar/sentence-flow. What do you think was previously here that is gone?
Sleep tight Ilisha
Don’t let the bugs bite.
Wow, but you know, you have to think of the numbers of crazy comments here. In the context of the greater community, we can tolerate a few crazies….Maybe if we meet them in real life, they would seem like the cousins that they are,,,,But regarding this “Muslim woman” you know there is always, always more to the story than what you see in the headlines or the first news. If she really wants to be in American politics, I would strongly advise her to start at a local level where people “know” and “trust” her. For her to go for a Senate seat….is really not a good idea.
Yeah, GrrlPower is very weird! I accidentally deleted my comments (meant to synchronize my accounts…oops!), but we had a long-running exchange and he makes very little sense. Oh well, guess you get the trolls on every site…