By “You look hot in that outfit. Care to join me in my apartment after work to discuss your promotion?”
One in three women between the ages of 18-34 has heard a similar, unwelcome sexually harassing comment at work, according to a recent survey. In the tech industry alone, 65 percent of women reported unwanted sexual advances from a superior, with half receiving advances more than once.
It is really horrible. Worse off, female victims are often blamed for the harassment either because they “look, dress or behave in a provocative manner.”
The simplistic assumption is that harassers are motivated by sexual desire for their targets. Not only is this notion of victim blaming ugly and problematic, it raises many questions when the victim of sexual harassment is a Muslim woman dressed modestly in loose outfits covering her hair and entire body except her hands and face.
Yes, Muslim women who wear the hijab get sexually harassed all the time. Don’t believe it?
HarassMap, a volunteer-based initiative that works to end the social acceptability of sexual harassment in Egypt, stated that it is a false notion when people think sexual harassment happens to unveiled and/or indecently dressed women and that “respectable” women don’t get harassed.
“Dress or behavior does not matter. According to the Egyptian Center for Women’s Rights 2008 study, 72 percent of women who experience sexual harassment wear the hijab (head covering) or the niqab (full face and body veil). In 2008, that percentage was about the same as the percentage of total women wearing the hijab and niqab in Egyptian society, which indicates that the average Egyptian woman gets harassed regardless of her clothing and appearance,” stated the HarassMap myths page.
In a recently publicized case, former Iranian TV anchor Sheena Shoran, 32, revealed to the world years of sexual harassment advances from her male news director, according to Iran Wire. On Feb. 4, she posted online reordered evidence of his calls and text messages asking her for sexual favors in return for his support of her work.
Shoran wears the hijab and yet that did not stop her perpetrator from harassing her. Another 2013 study conducted by U.N. Women revealed that 99.3 percent of the women surveyed have experienced harassment in public places regardless of their appearance, conduct or manner of dress.
Muslim women who dress modestly do not conform to the ideal ways of femininity so the harassers try to punish them and exercise power over them to maintain their subordination through unwelcome advances and comments.
These facts dictate that someone’s clothes, way of walking, talking or behaving is not to blame. The actions and decisions of a harasser are. Social psychologist Jennifer L. Berdahl challenged the common perception that sexual harassment is motivated by sexual desire and, therefore, is directed at women who are ideally feminine in the way they look or behave.
In her widely cited paper “The Sexual Harassment of Uppity Women”, Berdahl conducted three studies and the data she collected proved that sexual harassment is primarily targeted at women who violate gender ideals.
“The current research suggests that sexual harassment as traditionally defined for women — as consisting of sexual and sexist comments, unwanted sexual attention and sexual coercion…is driven not out of desire for women who meet feminine ideals but out of a desire to punish those who violate them,” stated the study.
It is not about lust. It is about power to control, dominate and derogate women. Using Berdahl’s analogy, Muslim women who dress modestly do not conform to the ideal ways of femininity so the harassers try to punish them and exercise power over them to maintain their subordination through unwelcome advances and comments.
So what is classified as sexual harassment? The legal definition of sexual harassment according to the United States Equal Employment Opportunity Commission is: “Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature constitute sexual harassment when this conduct explicitly or implicitly affects an individual’s employment, unreasonably interferes with an individual’s work performance, or creates an intimidating, hostile or offensive work environment.”
Yet the problem within Muslim contexts have religious, cultural and societal dimensions stemming from the widely abused misconception about women, the hijab and modesty. Somehow, the choice for women to adhere to a dress code is misinterpreted by some as that women are so seductive and men are seduced by them.
It is not about lust. It is about power to control, dominate and derogate women.
This ideology gave men the excuse to blame women for sexual harassment even when they are covered up from head to toes.
The Guardian published an article on Sept. 15, 2015 about how the hijab has made sexual harassment worse in Iran. Describing details of the every day reality of sexually harassing women in public places in Iran, the author highlights stories of their suffering.
“Growing in a Muslim country where the hijab is not mandatory, I have always been told: The hijab is there to protect women from men’s desire, because our body is ‘awra’ (intimate parts of the body that should be covered) that can spread ‘fitna’ (chaos) among men,” says Sahar, a 26-year-old non-Iranian who has been studying in Tehran for a year. “But then I came to Iran, where hijab is mandatory, and I am still harassed in the streets. Men aggressively stare at me, talk to me, call me names. I feel naked and worthless.”
In a study titled “Sexual Harassment in Greater Cairo” that HarassMap conducted in 2013, the authors explain how focusing on women’s dress in public as the reason for perpetrating sexual harassment harms by:
- “Portray sexual harassment as a women’s problem, they are responsible for it and they are its primary targets, and accordingly it does not require national attention.
- Distance and free men from any blame or guilt.
- Reinforce social acceptance and tolerance towards sexual harassment.”
A hijabi or not, embodying feminine characters or not, speaking softly or not, sexual harassment is not your fault. No matter how complicated the situation is, the harasser is always responsible for the abuse. Stand up for yourself and for others. Tolerate no blame!
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Image: Screengrab from HarassMap Video
Thanks for this article sis, may Allah reward you abundantly. I was just trying to explain this to my uncle who thinks its the victims fault for not wearing proper hijab. So much victim blaming and it’s never the man’s fault
Your headline if false. You aren’t going to get the same reaction walking around in a string bikini vs. a burqa. That’s obvious.
It’s also true that no one has a right to harass a woman based on how she’s dressed. But that’s not an excuse to deny reality, logic, and common sense.
so what it the reality, logic and common sense? that a woman should expect to be harassed in a bikini?
I haven’t figured out whether or not you really can’t grasp the point, or you’re trolling. Either way, I’m not going to engage.
I don’t get the point. to me you seem to be arguing two sides of the same coin. you say no man should molest a woman no matter how she is dressed. yet then seem to imply that it is more likely for a woman in a bikini than a burqa to be molested. again implying that a woman shouldn’t wear a bikini.
here is the last conversation that we had that I can find.
http://www.loonwatch.com/2015/10/anwar-omeish-sam-harris-maajid-nawaz-and-the-illusion-of-knowledge/
Correct.
No one deserves to be harassed. Nevertheless a woman is more likely to be cat called if she wears a string bikini as opposed to a burqa.
The second part is a fact. I know this because it is common sense and becasue I am a woman who has worn various things in public. I do not get precisely the same reaction no matter what. Whether or not that is how is should be, that is how it actually is. Thus, reality.
so rather than accepting this as reality, and by extension blaming the dress of the woman. why not just say no man should harass a woman regardless of what they are wearing, and work to change the reality by not making excuses for the harasser?
I already have. Here is where you start incessant repetition.
I have said it is never okay to harass women no matter how they dress. I have ALSO said all things being equal, being dressed in a string bikini increases the likelihood of bring sexually assaulted vs. wearing a burqa. I will never deny this reality just because you can’t grasp nuance.
ha ha you are true.I have heard about u before many times but this is the first instance i am seeing your comments,
Hi there. Why would you have heard of me?
Oh i am sorry but I mostly heard about u through El cid as he would criticize u often.I think u would not be offended as I am saying the truth in this case,
Ah, okay. I hope you’ll make your own judgments based on what I actually say, rather than other people’s views.
Oh illisha .You are good at debates as far as i have seen and I know u are a good women.It seems u are also good at writing as your words suggest and i have great respect for writers.he is a lunatic.ha ha I would never believe any of his words.
Thanks. El Cid is entitled to his opinion. No problem. But it’s good to judged on what I actually say rather than what others have decided about me. 🙂
Yes i would.Its great for u to remain calm and Ignoring others who dislike u.
Illisha why could not u sue him for his abuse and harassment continuing for a year.I know U dont give a shit about him as he is a funny lunatic but he is crossing the limits.
I’m not that bothered by things people say online. I don’t have to sign on and read this stuff. I could blow away this entire profile tomorrow and move on.
It’s just a person sitting behind his profile saying stuff to my profile. We don’t actually know each other. I find it interesting the things people online assume about me.
Sometimes they’re eerily spot on in their speculation about me as a person, and other times wildly off the mark. Either way, they don’t really know me, so why take it personally? People have their own issues, and likewise, I don’t know them. Maybe they need to vent at someone online?
If I cared a lot about what people think about “Ilisha,” I doubt I’d be so consistently candid.
When there was a different profile being outrageously abusive and vulgar, that was unpleasant. But I thought maybe that was just a sign I needed to get off of here and focus more on real life. If it drove me to that, it would hardly be a bad thing!
You are right and its a great advice for me.Thanks.Especially the second para.Its good.Thanks again.I too should develop a attitude like u.
Ilisha that is a very sad looking puppy. Is it yours? Why did you chose it as your avatar? Are you doing okay, Ilisha?
Be well, be safe,
Inshallah!
Not my puppy. But definitely reflects my mood.
I was afraid of that. That is why I dared break in. Never lost that mental connection with you.
You have a large family of friends here. They all love you in their own different ways. So you have much to hold on to for support.
Is it some thing that you can control? Anything you can change that will make it better. Is it a load one has to bear alone? Anything to do wit the winter? Spring is round the corner as you know.
Too many questions. Not curiosity though, just care. Maybe if we reconsider the avatar. The original one, the girl with the heart.That was you. But we can look for another. Move through the gray stages, reaching out, finding Sunlight as we go. At star at least. Don’t you think?
Little incremental changes of degrees add up to a qualitative change. I could suggest more but don’t want to overstep, be in your way.
You are not alone. Just know that.
Be well, keep safe.
Inshallah.
Thanks, El Cid.
Family tragedies. A long series of them. Unfortunately, no one can do anything to fix this.
I like the puppy. He’ll stay for a while.
I didn’t wish to intrude upon this particular thread, but wouldn’t have been able to find an appropriate place otherwise to ask that you take care of yourself and to let you know that you are in my thoughts. Trying times, though unwanted, are unfortunately inevitable. I glad that you are a very strong woman. Peace.
Yes the puppy can stay. We will let him grow up a bit, fill up some. Then maybe retire him for a while. Let him out, so he can get some exercise. Guarding your profound profile, a treasure of you, is a bit much too much for the little guy.
Was having these premonitions for a while. Once before too. But had let them slide. But this time they, it would not let go, I could not shake it off. So took the risk of up voting some of your work in LW. Letting you know, thinking of you, thanking you for posts awesome so.
There are only two things that have no fix. Extreme old age. And death. For while there is life there is always hope, all and everything can be fixed. Even though people may not yet know, how.
Considering what you have just told me you have kept an uncommonly stiff upper lip. Now don’t tell me you are British. I think you should pamper yourself a bit now.
I know it sounds a selfish awful thing to say and do. Well do it anyway. And plenty of regularly spaced small nutritious meals/snacks. High nutritive content low calories mostly. Long slow walks. And all the tears you have saved up all your life for a rainy day. Well, the weather just changed. Rainy days are here.
Now I have this naughty cat pic, actually a Kitten SuperSnipercat. I have to put him away for a while. He does not like dogs. Big dogs but puppies too. Bad cat. I mean kitten. Have to take away his gun first. You never know. He is too gungho!
And a prayer for you, strength, patience, endurance and Sabbar for you. That Allah allow you weakness in the strength He has given you – your strength of mind and spirit I have loved so much in you. That He carry you in your hard times. And let you rest and recover a bit. That which cannot be fixed has to be endured.
May you have Allah’s Love, Solace Cover you,
Peace be upon you ‘Ilisha’.
The stronger you are the more are you tested. True, no one can fix it. But in hard times sharing grief can reduce the burden a little bit, for a moment brief. Every moment adding up to another, to the next.
You have given so much of yourself to LW. I hope and pray you are not alone in your time of need. If LW was a normal blog you would have many more people around you today. Do you have family and relatives with you, ‘Ilisha’? You have your children with you?
Now I am giving more credence to my mind’s eye image of you. Your intense emotions, sense of loss breaks through coming in waves, wave after wave of grief that makes a grown man cry. As if the bell tolls…
I remember the Black Swan I told you about, sent a picture too. I wonder if you remember. I used to think of you as a young woman passionate, idealistic but with a cold heart. And an older wiser head that had seen much, read much. But the dissonance was that no one young or old could write like you.
I used to think of you as two people till you corrected me. Today I see you as an older wiser person with a warm loving forgiving heart, that grieves but endures. Yet in all that grief and pain today you forgave me for loving you. Thank you. I wish I could hold you and cry, ‘Ilisha’.
God made you good, warm, caring, forgiving, wholesome, generous. Yet I wonder why you love Muslims so much. Muslims don’t love Muslims as much as you love Muslims.
May Allah Solace you. May Allah keep you in His Graces.
May Allah Love you the way you have loved His people.
I keep you in my prayers as always,
Stay strong you are not alone,
Be well, Keep safe,
Inshallah.
” But it’s good to judged on what I actually say rather than what others have decided about me. :)”
I like your emoticon to him. Seems as if there is an implication in there somewhere. I never got one from you, not even an up vote. Please don’t condemn me by proxy to the innuendo of a stranger.
Yes, it would be good to be judged on what I too actually say rather than what others have decided or said about me. Perhaps not street smart, but I am as human and vulnerable and worthy of fair judgment as you. Please if you condemn me, if you must, then please at least not by a double standard if you are truthful, consistent and just
May Allah’s Solace and Comfort you.
You are in my prayers as always.
long story.
It is as long as the history of mankind.I do feel proud of her for being strong against evil forces.
“I have said it is never okay to harass women no matter how they dress.” yes and you should have left it there.
I can grasp the nuance, I just think it is wrong.
Facts don’t become “wrong” because you don’t want to acknowledge them.
must be a lot of string bikinis in Egypt these days:
http://egyptianstreets.com/2015/03/05/the-moral-epidemic-of-egypt-99-of-women-are-sexually-harassed/
Did I say or even imply that a burqa is 100% effective in preventing sexual harassment? No, I didn’t.
What I said is a string bikini makes it more likely. All else being equal, it most assuredly does.
well I don’t think many Egyptians wear burqas anyway.
I think you continue to miss the point. you are making excuses for the harassers. ‘she was scantly dressed’. you remind me of the imam in Australia who said ‘you don’t blame the cats if you leave uncovered meat out in the alley.’ http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/muslim-leader-blames-women-for-sex-attacks/story-e6frg6nf-1111112419114
Not really. If it is a FACT that a woman is more likely to be harassed based on how she is dressed, then is is a FACT, plain and simple. It isn’t reasonable to ask people to deny reality to suit an agenda.
Prevention and prosecution can and should be handled differently, in accordance with facts, logical reasoning, and common sense.
but how do you know that is a fact. if 99% of women in Egypt say they have been harassed, that hardly supports your hypothesis.
Your example doesn’t have any impact on my hypothesis at all.
of course it does. you don’t think these Egyptian women are wearing anything near a string bikini, do you? perhaps a harasser will simply harass the first woman he sees. I live in Florida and go to the beach all the time. I’ve never heard a single cat call on a beach.
What do you not get about “all else being equal”?
Let’s try a different example. Let’s say I have a valuable diamond ring and I leave it out on my porch, under a spotlight, unattended. My neighbor also has a similar ring, hidden in a lockbox in her house. Both rings are stolen and the thief is prosecuted. The judge says it doesn’t matter what the victim did, as theft is wrong and will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Same punishment in both cases. No contributory negligence will be taken into account. Okay. Cool.
That does not mean you can impose the conditions of the trial on reality. It remains true your ring is more likely to be stolen if you leave it out in the open vs hiding it under lock and key. Who would deny this obvious reality?
Not your insurance company. For theft, they generally require proof of forced entry, for example, in burglary claims.
Pointing out the difference in risk here doesn’t in any way imply locking down your ring guarantees it won’t be stolen. Just that it’s less likely.
Now I said “all other things being equal,” which means we wouldn’t compare a safe suburban neighborhood where things are almost never stolen with a high crime urban area where theft is very high. Because then risk differences can be attributed at least in part to the crime rates in the two places.
The same is true of sexual assault, the only difference being the emotional baggage interfering with logic in the latter case.
ok. you are right.
so what is the penalty for sexual harassment in islam?
I don’t know.
maybe it would have been a good idea to dedicate more than 3% of the Koran to legal doctrine?
you got no fiqh on it? I doubt there would be any cutting off of hands, right? do you think the woman’s dress should be taken into consideration before sentencing of the man? a fine? 10 lashes?
remember the women in the sudan being sentenced to 40 lashes for wearing trousers?
Why would you ask me if dress should count in sentencing when I’ve already repeatedly said it should not? Remember the bit about no contributory negligence in prosecution? Have you been drinking?
Sexual harassment is a modern term. A scholar would need to extrapolate to make a ruling. I haven’t looked up sexual harassment rulings.
No, I don’t remember a woman being sentenced for wearing trousers in the Sudan.
no, unfortunately no drinking today.
“Remember the but about no contributory negligence in prosecution?” is that part of Islamic jurisprudence?
this isn’t the case I was thinking of. the other one was a group of women and one worked for the UN. they others took their reduced sentence of 10 lashes on the spot. the UN worker made an international case of it. http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/14/africa/sudan-women-indecent-dress-case/
I can’t paste links in Disqus from my mobile. But you can Google. The case was overturned by the Supreme Court, as reported by Amnesty International.
I find all this Western “concern” for African and Middle Eastern woken amusing. The same people who slaughter these women and their families and reduce who cities to rubble are agast over trouser rulings. Lol.
I guess these women should be as comfortable as possible when they are vaporized by hellfire missiles.
yeah, she made an international stink about it and they caved to international pressure. kind of like the woman they were going to hang for apostasy. or the Norwegian woman in the UAE who they jailed for fornication after she reported being raped and couldn’t;t produce 4 witnesses.
always nice to be comfortable while being vaporized. not sure the last time we vaporized anyone in the sudan. I do recall something about the Arabized, muslim militias, the janweed (that is probably misspelled) killing a few (250,000) people in the west of the country. darfir I think it is called? not sure about any whole cities being turned to rubble, just villages wiped out.
funny, I think his last name is the same as the first name for the guy in Syria. coincidence? Zionist puppets no doubt, the bashirs.
so allah didn’t see the epidemic of sexual harassment coming. I thought in the beginning he took the pen and all things where written? the perfect law missed that one? so do you know that is considered proof of rape under sharia?
You apparently are unaware of US meddling in Sudan. Also that isn’t the only place where this sort of thing has happened. The West bites into everything, everywhere so I need not confine my example to this one country.
Yes, I do know about rape under Sharia. We discussed it previously at length. Do you have a medical condition that impairs memory formation, recall or both?
maybe. el cid has diagnosed me with a frontal lobe tumor. I haven’t taken his advice and gotten an MRI. anyway, please refresh me memory, how does a woman prove rape in sharia. is it not 4 witnesses?
https://islamqa.info/en/158282
No, it’s not.
here is the case I had in mind: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/female-sudanese-journalist-lubna-husein-faces-40-lashes-wearing-pants-public-article-1.394091
Case was adjourned,but in any case, I’m not opposed to other countries establishing decency laws. Maybe they’ve observed what happened in America and want to make sure it doesn’t happen in their country.
Just because the West abandoned the concept of moral decency doesn’t mean the rest of the world has to follow suit. Not everyone on earth sees “Slut Walks” as the pinnacle of human achievement.
far from the pinnacle, but certainly a welcomed addition. and very apropos to this very article. women should feel and actually be safe from harassment despite their dress.
but you bring out the lash to keep those sluts in line. always good to see your true colors shine through.
When you say my “true colors,” you seem to be implying I hide my views. There is little evidence to support this assertion. I don’t have any problem expressing views that offend the sensibitilies of Western liberals. My policy is ZERO APPEASEMENT.
As such, my “true colors” are on full display.
Yet when asked straightforward questions on your fiqh, you evade and dodge.
So you have no problem with lashing women who don’t wear burqas?
Not really. I think your memory issue prevents you from recalling straight up answers I’ve previously offered. Example: When you asked me about adultery. Hskol should be able to attest to my straightforward answer, and forthcoming details.
I never said anything about lashing people who don’t wear burqas. I said I don’t have a problem with decency laws as a general concept. And I don’t. You jumped on top of the Empire State building, with burqas and lashing, as if that’s the ONLY option.
ok, so if their are decency laws that demand a woman wear a burqa, but she doesn’t. that wouldn’t have mitigating effect on the sentence for a man who molests her?
No. You seem unable or unwilling to grasp my earlier point. I doubt repetition will bring clarity St this point.
how was that repetition? you said you support dress codes on decency grounds. so I was wondering if that would mitigate some liability, kind of like not wearing your seatbelt.
Because I clearly divorced matters.
How many times must I say the same thing? How many different ways must I express the same idea? Remember the ring example? Please reread that. If I make a law that says everyone MUST keep their rings under lock and key to help prevent theft, if a ring is stolen UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, I can nevertheless punish the crime the same, and give the criminal the SAME EXACT SENTENCE. I can banish contributory negligence from the prosecution of the case.
It is possible to have one framework for prevention and another for prosecution, as I have repeatedly explained in the clearest terms possible.
If you are still not able to grasp this distinction, then I must give up hope that you ever will.
Got it.
So remind me, what is proof of rape in sharia.
I’m not going to now. Let me go back through previous comments when I have time and then I can cut and paste. My comments to you on Hate Watch were deleted, but I think I can see them in my profile. I’m engrossed in something else right now.
Mike so a women going naked showing boobies does not have the danger of getting raped according to u.?????
actually nudist claim there have never been a rape at clothing optional resorts. I’ve been in many strip clubs and I’ve never seen nude women raped. I think it has more to do with the harasser than the victim. checkout the link I posted above of the woman in the cairo mall. not exactly a bikini she is wearing.
I think the appropriateness of dress for the situation would play a role. a bikini on the subway would certainly attract some attention. I’m mostly just messing with ilisha. she refuses to debate me on islam. kind of like your girl nasreen. 😉
ha ha mike what i could do for it.That crazy fool elcid is annoying me really.its too hard to tolerate him.
be patient with him. remember he is quite crazy. I bet you have it easy compared to poor ilisha.
Yes u are right ,i need to be like u ignoring him and thats what suggested to me.
but 99% is pretty ineffective.
Mike she wants no man should do that but all men are not gentle men so she should be safe until everyone is good and thats not going to happen so its best to be realistic ,
right, not everyone is going to be good. so best that women wear burqas, right?
see here is the problem with this entire line of logic. it is the old ‘boys will be boys’ argument. rather than putting the onus on men to behave better and control their carnal lusts, the burden is put on the victims to ‘cover up’. it maybe reality, but it is a reality that won’t change if the men aren’t excepted to change.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/heartfelt/2016/02/the-problem-with-boys-will-be-boys/
Mike I dont agree if burqa is a must but i would agree when it is weared with consent.I guess women really like burqas.I have seen many muslim women who wear it out of love as here muslims are half of the population.I mean in my locality.
what is it you mean by burqa? does it cover their face?
Yes but they could remove that face cover if they want.I guess here(india)burqa is not enforced mostly but they themselves wear it.
right. I just wasn’t sure if you where talking about the hijab (headscarf) as opposed to the burqa: http://www.channel4.com/news/from-hijab-to-burqa-a-guide-to-muslim-headwear
that is what she gets for showing her elbows:
http://thecairopost.youm7.com/news/174190/news/reham-saeeds-show-suspended-for-breaching-victims-privacy
Mike some people even fck dogs that does not reduce the fact covered up women are less likely to be harassed.
“Mike some people even fck dogs”
Your forte, I presume. Hindoos marry them as is well known. The dogs, I mean. You want references, just ask. But then you already know that, Slummee !
ha ha lol.you are funny.Hide in your momma panties because illisha slapped in your ugly face.
You are inviting me to talk about Islam by doing this elcid but i would not hate a single religion and its followers like u because I have many Islamic friends more than Hindus.You sociopath.Here i fought for burqa’s as a right thing but ur lunatic mind could not understand it and really elcid u are a black mark on islam as only due to arrogant fools like u Innocent muslims are getting a bad name.Certainly god will be proud of u.
One thing to note here that appears to (perhaps) be sliding past some of the commenters is that the article really discusses harassment in an employment context. Sexual harassment, in fact, is an employment law term.
Now, there might be people wearing bikinis to work or doing jobs in a beach environment (as is being discussed here), but I would think such scenarios would be relatively rare.
Women face various levels of harassment in any context, but it’s different in the employment context, where we’re often dealing with a great power disparity and the threat of negative repercussions to our livelihood. Even a manager who might be given a pass for treating women a certain way in his private life would face more serious issues if he brings it to the workplace and starts treating employees that way.
wild rose, what are you doing here?
you should head to ‘the undertow’ on st pete beach.
anyway, what is the hadd punishment for sexual harassment?
Mike it is highly offensive of u to criticize her.
no. criticism is not offensive.
and how did I criticize her anyway?
I am referring to “undertow”.
that is the name of a bar on the beach. the bartenders wear bikinis. http://www.undertowbeachbar.com/
Ok I often misunderstand english.
no problem. just ask for clarification. plus how would you have known I was referring to a bar on the other side of the world. I should have been more specific.
Illiterate is all over the Internet 24/7.
Really! Offensive for whom? For you rodent face?
Oh dont whine.I am bored we could have fun tommorow.Are u crying?get a napkin .
True for small business where favors and promotions are at times linked. In my experience corporations have built in controls and sensitivity training workshops, lectures and meetings. Can go up to arbitration. The real problem is in the military where harassment is not the operative word but sadly much more, brutally repressed.
The worst oppressor is Hollywood where it is the cost of stardom. While in UCLA I came across, in Los Angeles, beautiful aspiring women…used abused, discarded by the most vile, ugly, loathsome of men who control this ‘right of passage’. Have heard many a sad story. Everyone knows, nod nod, wink wink but nothing happens. And these were good girls to begin with, simple innocent hopeful ones from Iowa…life was not good to them in the end! One begins to lose faith in goodness of humanity, then.
BTW and you may well know that the very first day in colleges and universities security awareness and resources is the very first class. And I recall my systems/experiment design professor, late night labs, often wanted me to escort her to her car in the parking lot. Said she does not trust security anymore after a sad and awful tragedy with her friend and colleague, a doctor raped and murdered and stuffed into the janitors closet. That’s when you lose it.
However, I never saw anything bad happen on Venus Beach/Santa Monica where I lived for a while. Everything was consensual. You could see ‘active pairs’ on the beach as you skated passed them.
Once I saw two beautiful blond girls,all bronzed, with the barest of string bikinis with hair to the waist slowly running, laughing, along the waters edge with a policeman also laughing running after them enjoying the scenery. He had no intention of catching them for their absolute bareness, I presume. Life is not all bad, all the time. Crime is bad all the time. People have been brutalized after 9-11 !
No lunatic.You are the worst disgusting piece of shit and except hskol everyone hate u and ostracized u.Go out and get a life.You could not fool anyone by engaging in flattery and lies.
“You are the worst disgusting piece of shit and except hskol everyone hate u and ostracized u.Go out and get a life.”
You did run to HSkol to get him to ban me. And to Ilisha too. You stupid beggar. Do you think you can change their thinking one way or the other. They think for themselves and independently. Just as I do. And Nasreen too.
Look what Nasreen did to MikeSixPack. No women has ever achieved that. No not even Ilisha. Especially not Ilisha. She is crazy about that brain damaged nitwit. I can’t figure out why.
But know that I am not in here for votes and popularity contests. I can stand alone. One against any and all odds. You have not the concept what I am talking. about.
If I thought of and wanted Ilisha as a friend, companion and comfort in my life and made a tactical mistake of separating stepping away. Not knowing how a woman thinks and tests the man she really likes in the most brutal way. Well I failed there. I should have acted like a man and overrode her shit test. Rather not being a player I took her at her words to my never ending regrets.
So what? I still admire, respect and honor her. That has not changed. She still writes some thing awesome. The passion, fire and idealism still flows from her words over the Internet in to my veins. That has not changed.
A tactical mistake became a strategic one. Well so what. I can still enjoy her personality from a distance. If I comment and she does not reply, matters not. That is her right but yet will not forget that I remembered and wrote.
Heck, HSkol should have given me that piece of wisdom a year ago. But never mind.
As for getting a life as you say. I have been around the World five times. Have university and professional and military credentials you will never earn if you live a hundred years or more. And lived in many countries and seeped in many culture and projects and adventures.
And you Scumbag? What about you? Ever been out of your cesspool? Your village still has its idiot. That’s good. You take care. Your level of stupidity and lack of insight is unique. You give even MikeSixPack a run for his money.
Take care Slummee. Be strong, get stronger, faster, more agile if you want to stand up to a man, girlyboy, rodent faced Junkyarddog. As is you won’t last but a couple of minutes, at most.
ha ha stupid you dont know how rich i am though i was in a village..I would not show it and tell lies like u.I was bored and I am going to ignore u from now on as it useless for me to talk with u.So on go on barking like a dog at every chance u have.
.Oh pls leave this innocent girl.The world knows how that poor,good illisha was hurt by your venom.
“good illisha was hurt by your venom.”
That’s preposterous. You are the one with the venom and the poison. You have NO respect for yourself or for others. Not for Nasreen. Not for Ilisha. Not for your own mother who you consider a whore.
I have NEVER hurt Ilisha. Never even thought of anything but bless her. I have always honored, admired and respected her to a fault. Even when there was no reason for me to do so except wanting her to be happy and successful and her to be her best. To reach her full potential.
I studied Hindi because of her. Still not good at it. And you in one day are closer to her than I tried and failed for a year out of respect and admiration. You with unbelievable profanity is closer there, is beyond me. In real life you would be an ugly rodent whinny girly boy before me.
I saw real potential in her. Her being happy was happiness for me. It was as simple as that. What and how she wrote, the passion and idealism behind them was indescribably appealing, compelling for me. I thought of her as a real person not an avatar.
When she showed intimate interest in MikeSixPack and KrishnaMurti, I walked away. Then in Ravana. I stayed away. I walked away for a year. As long as she wanted me to, I did. That was a mistake.
HSkol later told me indirectly, in his low key manner, that I should have continued a connection, and never break once it has been made at least so as to let her know that she still existed for me, real in my mind. That is a kindness to a girl. I did not know.
I don’t know much about girls but a whole lot about men and weaponry and martial arts. I could demolish you in less than thirty seconds without weapons and in two with a weapon. You have no idea but do follow up with your open death treats to me. Islam will then allow me a defensive response. I don’t aggress on others.
Else my response to Mr.SixPack, KrishnaMurti, Munna and Ravana would have been entirely different. But in my belief system women are equal to men in all aspects of life except in choice of partner.
In this women are the ones with the superior say. So When I saw her interest in them I walked away as she wanted me to. A mistake as I learned too late.
I did not want to break away from her but I took her seriously and stayed away. That was the wrong thing to do. As I learned later. That is a mistake as I have learned over a year of reflection. One does not have to be close, this is the Internet anyway.
But no harm in talking or exchanging ideas. Much of the ways and world view, hers and mine, consider. As moral values and standards.
In a perfect World we would have found each other long ago. In this Internet one exchange of views is a substitute. None should lose connection with such a special person as Ilisha. And she misunderstood my respect for because there was nothing but a word behind it.
Words have no value in her World. As she just explained to you. And not in your and others who all those who say some thing and delete and trash it later denied.
So it is a game for most. Not for me. My word is my honor. Cast in stone. Man’s word is everything. That is a fundamental principle of Islam and MuhmmadPBUH. The Quran is but words that can’t be change although many are tying it yet call themselves Muslims. Only when she again allowed me to speak to her I tried but her comment post was lost in my spam blocker.
You are fragile. You live in a glass house and you make death threats. You have double standards as most Hindoo have. No morals. No standards. No guts. And look like shit. You on her other hand have been doing just that. To Nasreen. No Ilisjha. To mothers and parents. I tolds you that those who live in glass houses should not through stones. But you do. Had Ilisha told me that she was married to a Hindoo as Krishna says, all this would have been mute. But she never told me she was married or divorced. How hard was that. Nothing to it.
I owe you nothing. Do your best to kill me as you have threatned. I have gone through real horrors and dangers. You are nothing.. You are just pap! A punching bag on your best day.
And what do you mean innocent girl? A moderator like Nasreen who hands over commentators ISP codes to her friends and lovers is NOT innocent. That is a serious offense in Discus. You have been telling Ilisha to sue me! For what scumbag? And who are you to her anyway.
You are nothing but a shitbag to her. She was just being kind and courteous to you. She has a thing for Hindoos so it may be part of that. But sue? You are a deranged illiterate.
Nasreen a is a proper target for a federal offense, as are you for handing out death threats. You both would be in Gitomo if you carry on with your psych rants and death threats.
I know these things, as does Ilisha, but am just forgiving. You both are not in her class. Not even close. But imbeciles like you don’t understand that.To day I could easily have my attorney wipe out her bolg and have you both charged with federal offense.
Illisha has far more ethical standards then that. You seem to have double standards coming on to her. You are NO context Physically or intellectually. You are a mama boy need mothering.
You can’t’ take on a man. You rodent faced junkyard slumdog you stay in the kiddy pool. Do you understand, you rodent faced junkyard Slumdog. Capiche?
Oh kiddo ha ha do whatever u want because u are a stupid lunatic and u are a heavy burden to this society.You are a complete stupid kiddo.Is it hard for me to find your location without her help.ha ha technology is highly developed.Dont spew your venom on her. Your hypocritic speech tells about u.Thanks for exposing yourself.It looks u could not be controlled by rational words .I know very well about ur birth circumstances loser.I guess probably U are born in a slt house and beaten up,spit on face,and have then been a complete sadistic sociopath.Stupid i already told u too express your weapon skills or atleast a image.Dont u feel shame for constantly speaking lies to me.Oh just today u scolded illisha to hskol then suddenly u are talking good about her.Dont stalk me scumbag.Get into your latrine pit cockroach,However u try u could not achieve your sinister aim of harming others mind peace and ruining others.Meet u soon whre boy.Get out of your hiding place and come out to the real world where U would be slapped in your ass for your complete lies and sociopathic tendencies.I wonder how u believe u are powerful by just piling up loads of lies.Oh what u want me to believe now.Oh i see u got angry.ha ha thanks for all your fun.
1.you are a warrior when u are actually a cowardice loser.
2.you are a good man when ur sole aim is to ruin others.
3.You are intelligent when u are a scumbag who need to get a life.
4.You are a son of god when u are a evil hypocrite.
Go beg in the streets of your country and ask all to accept your dreams.No one would accept then too.You stupid hypocritic loser i would crush u in a moment.I hope time would come soon.Your abuses are noted ,Oh why dont u understand no one gives a shit about u and u are the one whining like a baby to everyone.get a life slt boy.I understand u are unable to accept the facts about u but i am sorry u are a disgusting piece of shit.Oh dont forget to hone your fighting skills by playing online video games.
You slt pig i talked to illisha only in three comments and she just replied.Is it a close relationship to u.I have never seen a paranoid lunatic like u.Now what are u going to say?You went to moon,sun,prayed in hindukush and desert,hard sciences.I am bored of that.Tell some thing new and interesting.Illisha would not note u.So dont try to talk like a good man,
Typical low Caste Hindoo living in a cesspool cannot imagine the lives of others. How other people live. So how is Nasreen doing. An agnostic from Pakistan and a low Caste Hindoo from Indian Slum. That’s is an obscene filthy abomination. Does Nasreen’s mother know about your liaison with her daughter? How about her father? He okay with your rat face?
Did not Maria advice you that Nasreen has no romantic interest in you. And you should move on and not bother her anymore. That was Nasreen’s message to you through Maria. Have some shame and stop stalking her. You have a snow ball’s chance in hell.
Nasreen does not want to mother you. Can’t you take a hint. You are just like MikeSixPack. Two peas in a pod. Both of you are mental cases and call others crazy and lunatic. That is a good one.
So now you are continuing to stalk Nasreen and now tried one on Ilisha too. Believe me Ilisha is way way over your league even if you are a Hindoo. Krishna was more to her liking but something went wrong there too. Too much passion from both sides, I think.
MikeSixPack has better chances for he does not sense the contempt in Ilisha’s comments because of his brain damage so keeps hitting the wall like the dimwit he is. She seems to enjoy leading him.
You project your pathology onto others. You are one sick puppy but look like a cockroach as you Hindoos often do: Muo mae Ram ram Sita Ram or Bughal mae Churie!
You murderous imbeciles. Rapists of Muslim women. And little girls. Pakistan has your antidote, nuke pest control, population control. LOL!
No whre.its a funny comment by u.We are more close than u think.Ha ha You dont know about how close we are.?Dont u read her post dedicated to me.ha ha great.you are destined to perpetually suck at getting women and u are going to be perpetually single.whatever u try u could not woo any other women even beggars .So shut the ass and wait for me till this years end.
Oh now i understand the reason for your enthusiasm.ha ha stupid she is courteous and kind to every one.You are a dumbass and we know it very well.Dont stalk women as no one would not give a shit about u and trust u.Oh you are a megallan.Ha ha whre in internet anyone would tell whatever lies they want.I would not lie like u.My frnds and my dear know about me very well.You are a disgusting son of prstitute and illisha would not give a shit about u as she already know about u very well.Here the funny piece is just before 3 hours u scolded naz and she too know it very well and about ur hypocrisy too.Illisha know it,naz know it and i know it.Mike know it and most of the persons know about u scumbag.Ha ha its funny u are talking a good man and try to woo women.Oh women need honesty not hypocrisy.You are destined only to some beggars.First earn enough for your next food douchebag ,I feel so sorry that u are living a pathetic life of lies.Oh its good u get angry.get more angry.It amuses me.thanks for your fun.ha ha we would have a good laugh at this as we are doing for your every comment.I dont have time for u so i would ignore u until decemeber.Bye troll.
what do you think nasreen, does a country have a right to set a ‘decency code’ that demands women wear burqas? niqabs? hijabs?
how about confining women to their homes? segregating them in public?
do any muslims know what the penalty for sexual harassment is in sharia? how about molesting a child? and how does a woman prove rape under Islamic jurisprudence?
El Cid:
I’d saw your posts in HP. Would like to talk to you here as that thread lasts only a week or so and you are off line most of the time. Let me know if you get this.
Yes, I was at HP supporting ‘Ilisha’. She had taken on the HP horde, foulmouthed barbarians, single handed. No one from Loonwatch came to her aid. But those LW dimwits would not have made much of a difference, no match for HP’s wit and vitriolic had they dared to come. They stayed safe within Loonwatch, protected by Ilisha. Shameless, useless bunch of cowards louts and imbeciles.
I was trying to give her moral support, focus psychic and mental energy into her. I felt she was overextending herself. Wanted to fight on her side. Tried to take some of the flack off of her.
I was a bit worried about her. I know she’d fight tooth and nail to the very last while enjoying cutting them to size with extraordinary skill, exuberance and panache. I was so proud of her, for her.
I know you were in there too, Melissa.
Thank you.
Beautiful people see beauty in others. Even though it may not be there. In an earlier post I had said not to beat yourself about her. She will only be mean to you. You may not have read it as HP closed that column. It is on my profile.
Read it and we can discuss it in more detail. In the mean time have you read Cyrano de Bergerac? Gone with the Wind? Recall the last scenes?
BTW where are you located?
“have you read Cyrano de Bergerac? Gone with the Wind? Recall the last scene […] BTW where are you located?
Normally I don’t read much fiction unless it is classic, near to life and the human condition. My reading tends to be technical and professional. My light reading is confined to detective and science fiction. Not much of it though. But yes, I have read both you have mentioned.
The former I found intensely poignant. A powerful adventurous life of hopes and regrets. Commitment, hope and unrecognized unrequited love lost, tenderly painstakingly etched into the last scene. Sadly no reprieve. Sticks with you.
The latter ends with a note of hope, that “Tomorrow is another day” is optimistic. A second chance given. A reprieve tantalized. There is hope offered in the last scene.
Two other thoughtful classics that affected me in similar manner have been Tess of the d’Urbervilles.The story of a pure woman faithfully rendered by Thomas Hardy. And Madame Bovary The story of a not so pure, in fact an adulterous woman by Gustave Flaubert. Have you read them?
At present I am in Dubai, had been in Lahore, Pakistan for a couple of days and am back. Will be leaving for the US for the Master’s Tournament and a family get together at Kiawah for a week or so. Then back here at Dubai for a while.
And you?
Is that Master’s Golf Tournament? You play golf? What is Kiawah?
No, going back for a family reunion. Have stayed here longer than I thought.They are patrons and have a pass for me. The town looks like a picture post card at this time in spring. Everything is spruced up and its holiday time. Happy colorful celebratory crowd.
Kiawah Island is a private island. A barrier island, South Carolina near Charleston where we have a beach house. The get together is there. Will relax for a week or ten days there.
El Cid, I’m very sorry for any intrusion, but I ask for your help here as my understanding is from that of an outsider; however, might you provide the insight that I cannot?
https://disqus.com/home/discussion/islamahmadiyya/was_muhammad_a_man_of_peace_a_detailed_response_to_nabeel_qureshi/#comment-2612351977
I’m certainly no expert in these regards. Sorry for that; and, thank you for your consideration – and, thank you for (hopefully) understanding my awkwardness and fumbling.
Peace be upon you.
“Please disregard. I’ve overridden this post.”
I seemed to have missed something here?What gives, HSkol? Anything about what I had said?
Also there was a post from ‘Ilisha’ on my notifications. A couple of others, too. Posted from LW but I am permanently banned there, from this email/ISP address, by Garibaldi and his incestuous anti Islam coterie of imbeciles, idiots, hypocrites and hate mongers. Banned there by him when I caught him mangling Quranic verses like any common low life enemy of Islam.
Just as well that I could not reply. She was all about mjm. He seems to have quite a hold on her mind. Even worries about being mean to him. Makes her eat out of his hand, *sigh*.
Salt on the wound, sort of. Even Melissa of HP, a total stranger, noted that when she referred to the irony of fate in the last scene in Cyrano de Bergerac, And SarahAB of HP smirked that I was jealous of mjm! Good one, that. Him being a ‘University Man’ and all that. And an expert on the Qur’an, Islamic punishments and lady private parts. LOL!
Gross!!!
They are having a discussion about the Hijab on LW! And ‘Ilisha’ was about her being able to ‘fix’ sexual orientations/aberration through psychotherphy.. And her private pet peeve about how our society is degenerating her family. The very topic I unfortunately offended her on a year ago was ostracized for it. Saved by the LW ban this time from repeating my stupidity. A silver lining Garibaldi never intended. Thank God for small mercies.
Family will be celebrating sister’s birthday tomorrow. But will find time and able to reply to you and ‘Ilisha’ if posts are not originating from Loonwatch. In fact will look forward to hearing and replying to you both.
So whatever you have “I’ve overridden this post.”, you don’t have to on my behalf.
May peace be upon you and your.
Many thanks for the reply. Actually, the other night (on a different thread – in some no man’s land type article) I had thought my words were a bit cumbersome and either did not convey true meaning – or, at the very least even my own understanding/perspective. I was going to ask for a correction in my thought as it related to whatever the topic at hand was. I don’t remember precisely the topic; but, it was Islam related.
I retracted my request for your help because my online presence has become a bit hit-or-miss lately due to responsibilities in life. Next week, I anticipate I may even take a full dive offline (just for the week though). We’ll see.
Again, thank you for your reply. Good to hear you’ll be spending time with family; and, I do understand why you’re Mr. Favorite Uncle.
Peace be upon you.
Thank you! As long you remember that you are always welcome.
Peace.
By the way, this is where I felt reasonably awkward.
https://disqus.com/home/discussion/islamahmadiyya/was_muhammad_a_man_of_peace_a_detailed_response_to_nabeel_qureshi/#comment-2612351977
Will take a look.
Thanks.
Funny, I’ve just noticed that we’re on a hidden thread. If you go to this site proper, you’ll see that these comments within Disqus are not associated with the article. I actually kinda like this.
I did not know that. Kinda cool. Private chat space!
I don’t think you’re banned from LW. You posted there recently, and I approved your comments.
Thank you. I don’t recall you ever banned me. You have been generous with me in that. Even when I faltered, when your friends teased you on my behalf…actually they were ridiculing me but you caught the ricochet. Not lost on me. Sorry about that.
Our break up in communications was at your request. On hindsight I realize it was just a momentary hot button impulse, you had all the right to it. And I to override it. I should have taken it lightly. Your ‘pretty little head’, that sort of unsaid ‘manly’ thing. Whatever!
You may not have read my posts to HSkol so you don’t know but my recent posts were from the other side of the World, Dubai. Had visited Lahore, Pakistan for a couple of days too, in connection with Ghazi Mumtaz Qadri Shaheed and resulting blow back. Plenty of trouble in that region.
That Email/ISP address is dynamic, also WiFi enabled, seeks the shortest/multiple pathway, is not banned, would have to be banned individually, manually each time/post I think, but the one here still is, permanently it seems. Does not matter.
I don’t mind Garibaldi et al having his ego trip. Little people get off on little victories. In fact luckily it spared me another foot in mouth. You have the ability to range any blog and turn it to your will. Haven’t forgotten your HP take down. Sooner or will catch you on one of your campaigns, again. A win win don’t you think.
You take care, pace yourself.
Be well, be safe.
Those who see themselves as sexual objects tend to wear extremes in dress. The hijab is one such such extreme, a bikini the other. What is happening the mind, with rare genuine exceptions, is little different, one from the other.
Quite often, very often, true. Then, there are the areas of tradition (hijab) and everyone-else-is-doing-it (bikini). Such a complex world, eh?
Sorry about the delay HSkol. I was offline for a while. Work and other things. Talk about a complex world. Hijab or bikini or not, things upset in a moment. If its not this that it is that and the other.
You know my friend El Cid, you know him, he has got himself into a mess with Ilisha. Doesn’t know what happened. Suddenly and quick he says. No warning he says. See if you can make anything of it.
Good evening Melissa. I hope all is well with you. I’m currently traveling, but will try my best to review upon my return to the states. Peace be upon you.
I’m a Muslim woman and I wear hijab, but me wearing it doesn’t make any diff to some dirty men looking at me in the street or trying to touch me. in Arabic countries they blame us all the time, but what’s the end of it ? should we just stay in our homes for the rest of our life. 34% of families in Egypt are supported by women. How can we life like that ?????.